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Michael McLeod

Give me a little time to lift my leg up over that idea Dave.

MM: The English major in me feels guilty to have nothing to say about Ayn Rand. Tried reading her fiction and her essays years ago. Never could get into either.

Mary Margaret Clark (Schultheis)

Mike....I am just curious as to whether you read the essay.

Michael McLeod

skimmed. 

if you gave me a quiz i'd be lucky to land a c plus.

judge me as you will.

Mary Margaret Clark (Schultheis)

Mike, the points that Rand made in this essay which was published in 1964, bear a strong resemblance to today's political discourse. In one section, she states:

"The basic and crucial political issue of our age is: capitalism vs socialism, or freedom vs statism. For decades, this issue has been silenced; suppressed, evaded, and hidden under the foggy, undefined rubber-terms of "conservatism" and "liberalism" which had lost their original meaning and could be stretched to mean all things to all men.

The goal of the "liberals" - as it emerges from the record of the past decades - was to smuggle this country into welfare statism by means of single, concrete, specific measures, enlarging the power of the government a step at a time, never permitting these steps to be summed up into principles, never permitting their direction to be identified or the basic issue to be named. Thus statism was to come, not by vote or by violence, but by slow rot - by a long process of evasion and epistemoolgical corruption, leading to a fait accompli. (The goal of the "conservatives" was only to retard that process.)

The liberals' program required that the concept of capitalism be obliterated - not merely as if it could not exist any longer, but as if it had never existed. The actual nature, principles, and history of capitalism had to be smeared, distorted, misrepresented and thus kept out of public discussion - because socialism has not won and cannot win in an open debate, in an uncorrupted marketplace of ideas, neither on the grounds of logic nor economics nor morality nor historical performance. Socialism can win only by default - by the moral default of its alleged opponents."

I would suggest this is what we are witnessing today, rather than discuss the particulars of the differences between capitalism and socialism, we merely throw out words like "Nazi', "fascist", "racist", "extremist", etc. to smear and demonize the other side.  This has happened increasingly since 2020. While it does happen on both sides, the leaders of the Left utilize these terms far more often and go so far as to censor and shutdown anyone who opposes the government narrative. .

Michael McLeod

Thanks for the explanation mm. But it's part of the reason the essay bored me. She's popular with the right and always has been. I found her argumentation shallow, stilted, exclusionary, jingoistic in the past and still do. She never held my interest because I thought she was shallow, heartlless, artificial, extremely simplistic in characterizing liberals, and still do. 

These are boring, circular discussions, as they were in her day and are in ours - from my perspective, anyway, and it sounds like you are saying much the same thing. Duly noted. Kinda depressing. In fact I rambled on a bit more than I needed to and wound up cutting some of my response out. 

John Jackson

Sorry, MM, Ayn Rand is so yesterday.  Aside from a handful on the extreme left, Dems accept that capitalism, for all its faults, is still better than any of the alternatives.

And it’s totally irrelevant that you bring this up because Ayn Rand’s ideas are no longer central to today’s Republican Party – which is totally a cult of personality around Trump and election denial and grievance against "elites" (never mind what that term means). 

Today’s elected Republicans are overwhelmingly willing to subvert democratic norms to hold their seats and stay in power – that’s all that counts.  And my proof is the fact that only a tiny handful of elected Republicans have been willing to confront the ugliness of Trumpisn and election denial, the cancer within your party and our nation.

David Mitchell

It's been a life time since I read Atlas Schrugged. I admit I cannot remember all of it, but I liked some of it. Somethng about "killing to stop the killer" made sense to me (i.e. wars against dictators to stop their killing of innocents).

However her emphasis on acheivement for one's own selfish desires seems so completely opposed to the message of Christ that I have to keep her at a safe distance. 

    (I'd be curious to know what Dietrich Bonhoeffer thought of her?)

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* * * Just in case anyone missed my sarcasm in what I was referring to above about Chinese restaraunts in abandoned bowling alleys - I think it is important to be clear. Everyone should be aware of how far off the rails this man really is.

I was referring to Trump's talk a few nights ago at a rally (I believe in Nevada) where he actually claimed that President Bush Sr. stored millions of sensitive governement documents in a Chinese restaurant in an abandoned bowling alley - but even though many of the windows were broken, that it was pretty secure.  

I don't think the crowd knew if he was joking or acutally claiming a "fact"? 

David Mitchell

Mary Margaret,

I'd be curious to know just how much "Capitalism" you think is embodied in our IRS Tax Code. It is in fact filled with thousands of pages of "tax shelters" for highter income citizens and large orporations. 

My favorite is (and has been for years)  the homeowenrs Mortgage Interest Deduction. You all know what this is. We have all benefitted from it through most of our lives as we owned homes. As a real estate agent I spent years touting this benefit to prospective home buyers.

But looking back, I see the effects of years and years of this "federal subsidy" (a socialist concept).  Instead of "free market" methods, this arbitrarily pushes the demand side of the classic "supply and deamnd" equation ever upward. And I beleive it is the only place in the 6,000 plus pages of the IRS Code where teh benefit gets larger the wealthier you are. 

After about a century of this, one of the noteworthy results is that we have a housing crisis that is expanding around the country. And I am not even referring to the homeless problem throughout our sities. I am talking about the housing crisis for "working people". We are now seeing some towns and even school districts buying housing for their employees. In some cases Police, teachers, and maintianence workers are unable to live in or even near the towns they work for.

And this tax "advantage" gets really obscene when we consier it is avaialable on second (and third) homes, such as  the miulti-million houses we have here on Hilton Head. (although we finnally capped the amount of the deduction some years back)

BTW, my real estate friends cringe when I raise this arguement. And it gets worse when we talk about commecial real estate tax benenfits - oh my!

But the "tax incentives" issue goes way beyond real estate. Some of the more ridiculous ones in my mind is the tax deductions for things like raising Arabian Horses, owning luxury yachts, or just the flood of, "business deductable" corporate vacations at luxury hotels with golf and other ammenities.   

Are we all happy with the price our children and grandchildren are paying for a home for their family, or would ther be a fairer way?  

Mary Margaret Clark (Schultheis)

John and Mike, Ayn Rand may be so yesterday and boring to you, but her points about how, for example, a simple word such as "extreme" can be co-opted to smear and demonize someone who espouses a legitimate argument to a particular political or moral issue is highly relevant.  What prompted my post was Biden's remarks last week at his meeting with his reproductive rights taskforce, where in the space of 5 minutes he used the term "extreme" or "extremist" 6 times to slam pro-life views as "extremist." This was purposeful so as to hammer home to his base that pro-life Republicans are on equal footing with "domestic terrorists".  Consider how the FBI has recently carried out arrests at the homes of 2 pro-life men with loaded guns pointed in front of their children. One was the father of 7 and the other the father of 11. The very fact that the FBI has the time and resources to go after these 2 men who only seek to save lives, but has completely ignored the dozens of incidents of vandalism against pro-life pregnancy centers across the nation (some attributed to "Jane's Revenge") is a frightening prospect for the near future.  

https://www.dailysignal.com/2022/10/07/fbi-arrests-father-of-11-in-front-of-his-children-for-pro-life-work/

Michael McLeod

Well in fairness, it is a cliche that history repeats itself. Some of that recycling is more interesting than others. I'm liking Rachel Maddow's podcast along those lines:it's called Ultra. And it's scary.

It's also true that a dozen people have been murdered at abortion clinics in this country. 

So yes, there's lots to be frightened about and nothing justifies violence on either side of the debate.

Mary Margaret Clark (Schultheis)

I would add Mike that 63 million innocent children have lost their lives at abortion clinics and some lives that have been lost were the mothers themselves. 

Michael McLeod

Not going to debate abortion with you here, nor politics. Kicking myself for getting drawn in by boring Ayn Rand essay in the first place. Don't think it's fair to classmates. Would rather let this forum be a more pleasant one for all involved.  I noticed recently that this place becomes a lot more fun when people don't find themselves walking into a crossfire, and I regret playing a part in this one. My apologies, old friends. 

Mary Margaret Clark (Schultheis)

Mike… That is quite fine with me. I have previously advocated over the years for debate to go forward on the User Forum so that those of us who enjoy debating issues could use that space. However it had been repeatedly rejected by some.who felt that we were mature enough to have honest, respectful discussions on this Message Forum. I am all for respecting everyone's preferences.

Coincidentally, for those who may possibly be interested in sharing information on political/cultural issues, I have continued to post on the User Forum those topics of special concern to me.

Janie Albright (Blank)

As moderator I try not to do much moderating, however, I have asked MM to post her more controversial topics up for debate separately on User Forum and she has been very respectful of that. Thanks again MM. 

So I will remind the rest of you to please pop over to the other forum to respond. MM posts on this Message Forum just to tell you she has posted a new topic over there on User Forum. Then it is easy to look at different topics and respond. Way easier than here amidst our 10k messages. 

John Maxwell

Michael McLeod

On a lighter note, this may be the funniest call in to two newsbroadcasters ever. MOM!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q15xhG6pVUw&ab_channel=C-SPAN

David Mitchell

In all fairness, I ommitted a significant item in my diatribe about Socialism in our IRS Tax Code.

I am myself a benefiiary of some of that socialism. I receive Socual Security checks each month from my Government. I will not try to justify the right or wrong of that item.

But I will admit that there are things I would argue are good ideas under the the category of "tax incentives" - perhaps wind and solar energy, historic preservation, medical research, and many other good ideas that need our help. I brought up my earlier points simply to remind us all that we've got plenty of Socialistic ideas mixed into our "Capitalist" system.

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And before we go off this Forum with that "other" item, I will state that I believe the unborn are human lives. I cannot fathom how it can be considered otherwise.

Weren't we all alive in our mothers womb at one time?

But yes, I do wish our legislators could show more sympahty to the victims of rape, incest, or endangerment to the mother. And I agree that Gov Abbott and his kind seem more like a bullies than a Governors.

* * * A reminder to check out the website for Mira Via, a very interesting charity operating on the campus of Belmont Abbey College Catholic college, near Charlotte, NC. They have built a "home" for expectant mothers who would prefer not to terminate their baby's lives, but wish to be able to continue to attend College classes while still having and raising those babies. Studies showed that there is a significant number of young pregnant girls who are having abortions - against their own wishes - only because the pregnancy would prevent them from attending college.

I would be curious to know who in this two-sided arguement could disagree with their concept? 

We can put men on the moon, and pay golfers tens of millions in prize money (for 4 dyas "work"), but we can't help pregnant young women?????

Michael McLeod

and now for something completely different:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTSmGFa_vtA&ab_channel=larryware1

Mary Margaret Clark (Schultheis)

Alan Standish

That's funny, Maggie!!  Go Yankees!!

Mary Margaret Clark (Schultheis)

Joseph D. McCarthy

MM,

Where in the Frank is the LIKE button.

Mark Schweickart

MM – The silliness of your post is unfortunately overshadowed by its truthfulness, so even though it makes me want to laugh, it moreso makes me sad. A happy-sad moment, to be sure. Now excuse me I hear someone coming along the street I need to go bark at.

John Maxwell

Michael McLeod

two dog poems by a pal of mine who retired down here. He said he was determined to write a dog poem that wasn't sentimental.

I think he suceeded with one of these even though it is in the all dogs go to heaven category. Billy is in his 80s now but still writing. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOvbl3ZPPV4&ab_channel=TED