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Michael McLeod

Snarky that the wsj writer had to include that "well, you knew he was flaky when you voted for him' line.

David Mitchell

I am still unable to grasp the fact that these thugs were simply allowed to exit the premises and walk away unimpeeded after they were finished with their assault.

And how differrent would it have been if it had been a racially inspired mob? 

Consider what a dangerous precident we will set if he is not arrested, impeached, or in some way removed from office for these criminal acts - sedition, insurrrection, inciting a riot. So far, just talk. Talk is cheap.

James Hamilton, M. D.

Tim,

In response to your question in Post #8817:

As you may have observed I have tried to avoid political topics for some time now. But you asked for my truth and my thoughts. First off, I do not condone the illegal storming of the US Capitol building on 6 January 2021.

My ideas on this and other issues are of a longitudinal nature and go back to the 2016 election. My belief is that one - if not the main - reason that the left and so many Democrats literally hate President Trump is that he beat their "heir to the presidency", Hillary Clinton, in the Electoral College and they never got beyond that fact. They  failed to remove him from office by their attempts to to connect him to Russian collusion and other false accusations. To me it is very possible that some of them have tried, and perhaps succeeded, in creating fradulent means to insure that elections are altered to favor the candidate(s) of their choice. As I mentioned some time ago, I am very disappointed that SCOTUS refused to hear arguments which could have presented volumes of evidence to prove fraud in their court. I suggest that there are some 75 million American citizens who also feel this way. Does anyone NOT believe that there was some fraud in these recent elections (national and Georgia)? Even if it would not have changed the results, it needs to be remedied for future elections. "Never let a crisis go to waste" seems to have been in play here with the pandemic being used as an excuse to change election laws.

Despite his being harassed throughout the last four years President Trump has had many successes and kept the majority of the promises he made prior to his election. Obviously, his opponents disagree with those policies but they are the ones he promised.

His rallies have been attended by hundreds of thousands of his ardent supporters and have always been peaceful. People describe them as uplifting and fun. They have never been violent. (The violent talk that I have heard has come from the mouths of people like Maxine Waters and Eric Holder.) I just reviewed the speech he gave to the crowd on 6 Jan and found no evidence of his enciting a riot or advocating violence. I read it as wanting them to show peaceful support to the convened House and Senate to consider his request for the states to vote on electors. Yes, that was a last ditch effort, but was not illegal. The courts certainly would not give him a chance.

Those who did storm the Capitol should be prosecuted, whoever thy are. Some have suggested that  members of radical left groups, such as Antifa, may have infiltrated the crowd and been involved with the invasion. Does anyone NOT believe that is possible?

As bad as that invasion was, it pales in comparison to the riots, looting, burning and other destruction that has ocurred in the past year in Democratic run cities across America.

The security at the Capitol was unbelievably poor. That needs immediate attention! I also wonder if there were some insiders who assisted the criminals in accessing the building. Does anyone NOT believe that is possible?

There needs to be bona fide investigations, on a national level, into the election fraud issue. I also think there should be a national standard for elections in all states and territories on how elections are conducted.

Furthermore, I think that there ought to be a "state electoral college" for Governors, other state officials and Senators made up of counties from each state. I know that here in Colorado most elections are determined by the Denver/Boulder/Aurora area with little attention paid to the Western Slope and Eastern Plains concerns.

Finally, Tim, although I can't find it right now on this Forum or a private message, I think it was you who told me before the election that there are enough checks and ballances on our system that many of the radical ideas that have been proposed by the far left members of the Democratic Party are unlikely to ever be instituted. Now that both legislative branches and the executive branch will be under Democratic control and all three of those have such members in them, I would ask you if you still believe that.

I have said this to others: the slippery slope just got steeper and has been placed over a pit of quicksand.

Jim

Michael McLeod

Good lord, Jim.

Blaming riots on democrats is nuts.

I mean that's just such a breathtakingly white-privileged, misguided, over-generalizing statement I don't know where to begin to counter it. I'd be curious, speaking of riots, to see how you could justify or rationalize Trump's quite obvious role in manipulating his followers to engage in one two days ago.

Though just as wrong, your assumption that people who disdain Trump feel that way not because of his many, many thuggish and mendacious utterings and actions but because they wanted Hillary as president, is a bit easier for me to understand, since I've long suspected you've turned a blind eye to Trump's dirty-tricks ways, chronic mendacity and sheer political incompetence simply because he confirms your contempt for the other side of the political spectrum. 

Finally, if you can find me concrete evidence of widescale voting fraud -- of which there is no legitimate evidence to date -- I'll be as incensed as you. I do hope there is continued bi partisan investigation the election if only to reassure Americans' faith in the democracy this misguided, ill-tempered, utterly self-centered,  hateful man did his best to destroy. 

Joseph Gentilini

Dear Jim, I have read your response #8821 to Mike's post - can't remember the number.  It is well thought out, clear, and concise.  Even before you wrote it, I surmised your views after reading some of your other posts.  I don't agree with much of what your wrote (and you have probably surmised that also), but it is a nice place where ideas, feelings, and thoughts can be put forth safely.  peace, JOe 

Timothy Lavelle

You know what I think is funny. I think Mike's now deleted post weasle wording his thoughts...basically saying "Don't pick on Jimmy" is pretty funny. 

Jim knows Tim far better than most of you know Tim. Jim needs no defending from me and he understands that fact while some of you don't. 

By the way Mike, I missed your telling your bud Dave that he shouldn't antagonize our own female lead from the far (far, barely visible) right. But no doubt you have reasons.

We all had many things in common when we were 16. We all believed in Jesus, that the American way was the only path to moral superiority in this world, and that gay people should be shunned at the very least. Many of us have changed fundamental beliefs in the ensuing years based of life's in-your-face lessons. Now we disagree deeply on many things, and honestly I celebrate that. 

I will continue to try to make everyone laugh when I can or to be negative when I think it is called for because that is my truth just like Jim tells his truth...gee, did he not feel picked on by me Mike?...as shown above. 

I do call people names. I do pick on people who I believe are truly "out there"...a euphemism for someone you would be totally embarrassed by after introducing them to your friends in a bar. 

I'd like to carry on this discussion with Jim because it is an opportunity to have someone with intelligence show why he believes ideas that many...no, I...think are almost paranoid in their root. 

But let me offer you all, everyone who still reads this forum, a deal. All it takes is one of you....just one...if you'll post here, not some weak kneed crap telling me how to purport myself, but just "Lavelle, stop posting here", I promise never to post here again. Think how badly I will feel if multiples of you take up the challenge. 

Memories of Woody Hayes as a solution to anything. Jesus Mike, gimme a break. 

Michael McLeod

I defended him Tim, yes I did. And I'm even surer now that bringing it up at this point was tactless on your part.

But once I saw his response I was embarrassed about being such a softie.

You can see why, if you take the time to read my last post. 

But how swell it is of you to call me a weasel just to round out the prevailing animosity.

Timothy Lavelle

What crap. I wouldn't insult a weasel like that.  

You bored me with endless columns of anti-Trump articles but after that side invades the heart of democracy you say "First, let's be loving". I thought your chosen field was about the truth, no matter how hard it was to get to that truth. 

Or is it just about placating the fans?

C'mon. All it takes is one person. 

Frank Ganley

I was totally blown away by most of the responses, I WAS SURPRISED ABD PLEASED WITH JACK MAXWELLS'S STATE MENT Soory for the caps but i have to watch my fingers, Mary margaret asked we pray to which Goose responded he did. My hopes for our nation which none of you give a yot or a tiddle is this: i PRAY THE BIDEN WILL GO DOWN AS THE GREATEST PRESIDENT EVER! I PRAY FOR THAT MORE THAN ANY OF YOU TWITS HATED tRUMP!  nOW THE SECOND THOUGHT and please explain to me why this is not possibe, if he won fair and square , which some doubt then why not open the books and count the ballots so that no one can say biden cheated. Shakespear said it best,"Me thinks thou doth protest, too much! But then lets get into the ridiculous and sublime, starting the pole position Mr Mitchell, how ridcuiculous of you to ask mary margaret if she approved the rioting, Insulting!Mr Mcleod asks does mitchell have any integrity, no. he fluuters in the wind with the rest of you only becsause they hate trump !! Why and why could you all do nothing but try to destroy his family, his work for the country and the peace that he has brought to the world which no one else could do, but spew the hate.Only to be topped by that great thinker and solver of nothing mr. Jackson who insinuated that the eminant dr, hamiltonwould have the audacity to think that there was no outside influences likeANTIFA  would they would not be involved. II guess all of the rioting on the west coast was a figment of some right wing republican and antifa is a bunch of nice boys and girls who would never do anything like that..against.this great country!Mr Jackson who caused ever riot up till this january, left wing useless cry babies who only want their own way. Antifa, blm etc, thats who, all the groups that hate trump. not trump supporters were too busy, working, retiring to golf, sailing , and the pleasures of life which we deserve for working. Its our money we earned! why do you think we should be taxed more? why should are rights taken from us by the do nothings like you libtards! MR MCOEOD BRINGS UP WHITE PRIVLEDGE, KISS MY ASS1 THAT IS DUMBEST STATEMENT INVENTED. What is it? i must apologize to you idiots for being white and successful, i owe you something for being what God made me. I did't have a vote on it. Becasuse i'm white i get everything. Bull merde! Maybe i  was afforded some things but i had to work my ass off to keep that opportunity, it wasn't like I'm dumbocrap with a government job. How about hindu indian privledge, they're all doctors and engineers or german privledge they are all engineers. you people make me sick with all of your self rightous lib crap and those who support Trump are pathetic losers. There are many lurkers on this site who don't want you few idiots to condemn them for e way they think. How do i know, i talk to them, i meet with them. i play golf with them, go out for dinner with them and they all agree you all are a f&*KI%&@ joke with all your hig and mighty way. Not one of you morons have any thoughts as to what would make this country better but lets get rid of trump. we have 12 days till inauguration day and you assholes are still rtying to indict him, throw him and his family into jail etc. nothing better to do.As i stated in the bigging I pray biden is the greatest president ever. But if he fails to maqintain what we have in terms of manufacturing, banking, foreign affairs, etc, gthat sin is on your souls and all those that help cheat the USA out of a fair and honest election. So on that note I BID ALL OF YOU A FINAL ADIEU !hOPE I'M WRONG BUT I DON'T THINK SO 

David Mitchell

(could somebody tell the usher that we are running out of toilet paper here in the men's room?) 

Timothy Lavelle

Sooooo, uh...

How ya like me now Mike?

Small point but how many times does an even semi-literate person have to count something before you believe their count. If the vote was rigged why didn't Biden get every state. In a vote for class president you wouldn't have the audacity to claim it was rigged. 

Did the Dems demand a state by state recount when Bush and Gore went at it? Did Hilary ask for a recount even though she had more actual votes.

You think that because so many people despised Trump and his emperor type approach that they would bend to steal the election. That you are the only true patriots. What complete garbage you spew. You are paranoid and you embarrass people who try to give you the time of day.

David Mitchell

Color me confused ??????

Michael McLeod

Jim:

How can I respect you when you mix your metaphors?

James Hamilton, M. D.

Mixed metaphors? No way would I ever travel that road just to score points with my posts!

Jim 

Mary Clare Hummer (Bauer)

Your opening premise in your response to Tim is false, Jim. Where are you getting your information that helped you form the opinion that the “reason that the left and so many Democrats literally hate President Trump is that he beat their ‘heir to the presidency’, Hillary Clinton, in the Electoral College and they never got beyond that fact”? Believing that surely helps you dismiss/support the assaults to our democracy that have been promoted and encouraged by the person in the White House over the last 4 years. It's no secret that you and I view these years through very different lenses and you raised a myriad of issues in your response. You have garnered a certain level of respect on this forum for your work ethic, measured input, even for the beautiful photography. Tim’s question wasn’t about the past four years or the rioters or the courts or the vote or the security. He asked if anything that took place in DC on Wednesday had any effect on your thinking about Donald Trump.

Clare

Michael McLeod

Um, Clare  - you don't have to whisper. There is a font size option you can click on at the top of the field. But I do agree with you: Jim is not a mind reader -- and he wouldn't have to be to realize that the last thing on the minds of people who see Trump as a dangerous psychopath is poor Hillary. 

For one thing, let's face it: Hillary wasn't all that no matter which side of the fence you were viewing her from.

So you are waaaaay off base in that assumption, Jim. (Another way of saying that is that "there are none so blind as those who cannot hear.")  The psychopath factor  -- and I can provide quite a bit of material to back up that diagnosis if you want to get into it -- was what triggered our revulsion. 

And Frank: I do appreciate your prayers. Were I still among the faithful I would join you in them. And I'm not being in any way sarcastic.

Janie Albright (Blank)

I suggest you read this article. It's a good take on those who thiink that they could vote for Trump because of a single issue while ignoring the rest. It does not work that way. 
https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2021/01/08/thomas-more-catholic-trump-supporters-239683

David Mitchell

Janie,

Thanks for the timely article. I loved that film - one of my all-time favorites. And it makes a great point about our collective moral consienses. I have had some hard "debates" with a few of my evangelical friendds who are avid  Trump supporters. They keep using the argument that we we, as Cristians, need to forgive. And in applying this to Mr. Trump's horrid past, they justify their political loyalty. 

(my wonderful Methodist mother used to say "there is a difference between forgiveness and condonement")

I must, as a Christian, agree with this concept of forgiveness, but I cannot agree one bit with their implicit condonement, which their strong proactive political support allows. In my upbringing, a man who is a virtual attack dog against all moral standards is not qualified to be held in high esteem, let alone elected to public office. 

(I think we could find dozens of men in our prison system who would have forced our NATO allies to pay up, and I disagree with the linking of the stock market to any sitting president. There is much more to it than that. But we must agree, that was a hell of a bull market during teh Obama years!)

I first want to address the elephant in the room for us who claim to be "Christian" (and that name in itlsef has become a seriously blurred label) - I want to clarify my position on Abortion, as it relates to Trump.

I oppose abortion!

I have opposed it all my life. My Father in law (Dr. Tom Hughes) was the pereniail President of the Central Ohio chapter of Right To Life, and my father (Dr. Bill Mitchell) was the one who stood up at each annual dinner and handed my future father in law a big check, and challenged those other Doctors to put their money where there mouth was. I wish we had a society that valued human life better than it does. But I do not agree that that issue will be solved by legislation. I question that the majority (not all) of these young women should be dealt with by capital punishment, and I am still wondering why we don't hold the fathers to some sort of legal responsibility? I could go off on a lot more detail here, but let's not.

Back to the questtion of Trump  - who I contend, has never really been opposed to abortion, except that he saw votes and the word "winning" rang a little bell in his head. 

Here is what I cannot accept;

I cannot accept his years of bragging about his sexual promiscuity, his statement that "There is no sin in Adultery", his braggin about what a "brave soldier" he has been because he was in so many vaginas in these "dangerous times", his years and years and years of cheating his vendors, suppliers, contractors and oh yes, investors out of what he owed them, his constant lying, his repeated firing of anyone who disagreed with him, his frrequent standing with so many of our enemies and calling them "buddy", or my "dear friend', (isn't that Treason?), his insulting our POW's, and lastly - (to quote Dan Cody at Clare's 2019 Christmas party), his blatant public insult of a reporter with Cerebral Palsy - all qualify him as someone who we should want to quickly gather our children inside the house and hunker down in protective mode.

Or as the widely popular Evangelical pastor, speaker, and author, Max Lucado said (before Trump was nominated) - "shouldn't we expect him to be at least as polite as the young man who comes to our door asking to date our daughters?"      

John Maxwell

James Hamilton, M. D.

Clare,

Tim asked if any of the events of 6 January had changed my mind about President Trump and wanted to know what is my truth. I must not have answered that as clearly as I had meant to do.

The short answer to the first is "no" but the events that followed that day have changed some of my thoughts on this whole episode in our soon-to-be history. I now also feel very sorry for him having to endure the "piling on" and the "kick 'em when they are down" approach that many Democrats, several Republicans, the press (of course) and the moguls of "social media" have taken. I am angry that with just a few days left in his presidency there are those who want to invoke the 25th Amendment, demand he resign, impeach him again, remove his possession of the nuclear codes because they believe he might want to launch a nuclear attack against somebody, rescinded his freedom of speech on certain platforms and even arrest him.

As for my thoughts on why so many Democrats hate him (from the day he was elected), one of my first reasons was that he defeated Hillary, I stand by that. I do not often rely on articles and press releases written by others to help me form my own opinions. I stated that was my belief. Mike is correct, I cannot read minds. Nor can anyone else (except on the TV show The Listener which my wife loves). Naturally, the press is not going to state that one reason he is hated is because he defeated Hillary when they can accuse him of assulting democracy which would resonate better with their liberal audiences.

From every view point, and for different reasons, this is a very sad and difficult time for America. It will leave a wound on our country that can fester (Mike: note a single metaphor!) if those in control allow it. I hope and pray that will not happen.

Janie,

Interesting article. I have read others during the past months of campaigning that more subtilely favored President Trump. As we have been told, the Church frowns upon their priests preaching in favor of individual candidates. I think this is an oft broken rule. Perhaps writing about them differs from preaching in the pulpit. I do not know.

I am not a "one issue" voter and I doubt if any of our classmates are. Some issues are obviously more weighty than others in both the Church's and individuals' minds. It becomes a matter of conscience for many. In my mind, policies win over personalities and character flaws. In past posts I have said this and others have responded in both negative and positive ways. We probably don't need to revisit the issue but it may happen anyway.

On a brighter note it is a grey, snowy day here in Colorado Springs and, when you live in a region experiencing a drought, grey and snowy is bright!

Jim

Timothy Lavelle

Jack, 

You're not pollyanna man. You've got great instincts.

It's just this...well, a couple of things...it was almost 60 years ago that we were all mates. We don't individually think the same way we did then for the most part. Secondly, it's an obvious fact...at least to me... that some of us are more intensely feeling what has happened...and those feelings are real. Real, and worth yelling about.  

I want you to live long and prosper but if my diva-esque departure from politeness yesterday or anyday offends, just drive by the LaVelle train wreck and keep on truckin'.

Clare, thanks for your remarks. You are always a source of true clarity.

Got a date tonight?

Jim, while I would bet you're a hell of a doctor, I think your ability in the diagnostic area could be looked at a bit. The country is sick from the devisive tactics of Trump but you would assume the position "hey, America, you're not dying, you brought this on yourself and half your body really loves this disease." Just nonsense from a smart man. Like Jack, you have a good heart but I think you might want to take up golf.  

Mary Clare Hummer (Bauer)

Very thought provoking article, Janie. But did Jim just say he forms his opinions without relying on reading or research? Wow.  And Tim, regarding "clarity", I picked up on the pun. Back at old 99 East Cooke Road in our glory days, the nuns and others teachers would explain a theory or translate a phrase or list the causes in a lesson. Many times they would wrap it up with an attention-getting "Very clear?"  I often panicked, emerging from a daydream, thinking they were calling on "Mary Clare" without a clue of an answer! Busy watching football tonight.  Going with the Seahawks and the Buccaneers!!    
Clare

James Hamilton, M. D.

Clare,  

Just for the record, I wrote that I don't often rely on them; I didn't say I don't read them. 

Jim

Michael McLeod

Jim: I guess I will give you credit for it. On the other hand I suspect that the only reason you got that metaphor right was because it was in your ballpark and you had the home field advantage.

Mary Ann Nolan (Thomas)

Democracy won Despotism lost.