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Timothy Lavelle

Frank, I think your post is very enlightening and proves all along what we all have known.

Even a child molestor knows any ugly child when he sees one....but, hey, hhhuuuuuuuggee success with that law suit bud.

Anyone who hasn't read Mark's stuff is missing out. His stuff is not children's bedtime stories and goes great with a shot of scotch in the late hours.

There is a terrible old joke about a guy giving up being an atheist due to the lack of holidays. Ba-boom-boom.

Urz trly, Old 12 drawers. 

PS> Hopefully Go-Go for awhile yet.

Janie Albright (Blank)

Mark, love the excerpt from your play. I'd like to read it. I have asked those same questions many, many times but my split from organized religion was much more personal than philosophical. I divorced and remarried the love of my life.  They rejected me unless I was willing to get an annullment. I was unwilling to say my first marriage which produced my children was a sham - more of an incompatibility issue of the highest order- but not a sham. So I spent 36 years on the outside. Now because my granddaughters are in Sunday preschool I am an aide in their classroom like I was when my own daughters were little. Does this mean I've found answers to the questions Kaymus asks? No, I still have them but as I age I need the comfort of familiarity. My husband has passed away so the technicality that kept me out has resolved itself but I will be inside the church (rather than at the bar with Phil) praying for some guidance. I'm still quite the skeptic....hopefully lightening won't strike me while there!

Michael McLeod

That's a beautifully crafted scene, Mark.

There is a fated feel to the development of the conversation in this forum. I was curious about that spectrum you mentioned - basically how many of us stuck with Catholicism or Christianity and how many of us discovered another way of perceiving the mystery of our existence and the universe around us. 

It was inevitable, perhaps, that we'd get around to faith, and to the questioning of that faith, since I can't imagine that any of us could have possibly gone through life without doing so at one level or another.

Given our age I doubt that anyone is going to change direction at this point.

Given the divisiveness of our country right now I surely hope that any conversation we have about it here is respectful and even - if it's not too much to ask - affectionate.

Here's how I'll describe my own spiritual identity. We were raised to believe in faith, hope, and charity.

What I've discovered is that two out of three ain't bad.

Nina Osborn (Rossi)

Hi All!!! I was at the Fish Fry at OLV last night and thought about how nice our reunion was in September!  It sure got a great discussion forum going. I want to print all the comments and just take the time to really READ them. But I have not even watched the movie dvd we received in our goodie bags so as soon as I watch that I will print the comments. I know we all have had events that shape our beliefs. Like Dave I love a good discussion!! For now I just look forward to reading the comments both serious and humorous!!  Thank you!  

With the full moon AND the time change I look forward to some interesting comments!!!  

James Hamilton, M. D.

Joseph Donahue

I have often wondered what my life would have been like had I not been introduced to God through the Baltimore Catechism.  Remember...God is great...God is all powerful, all knowing, all seeing etc. etc.  One of my earliest memories is trying to figure out how long I might spend in purgatory before I could get to heaven.  Let me see...was that 512 venial sins and 23 mortal sins and how many am I allowed before I go to hell and I guess if I go to confession and say 212 Hail Mary's and several Our Father's and a handful of Glory Be's am I good?  Yet we survived...

As an adult I have gone from Parish Council president, lay minister, lector to not attending Mass for extended periods of time. I have asked God to heal my daughters' cancer to blaming him for all of the problems I have encountered.  

After I retired, I went back to school to work on my masters in English. I never finished (thus the poor syntax) but I did take a course on The Bible. The professor asked us to read it from a literary standpoint versus a faith based view. While doing research for a paper, I began to read the Gnostic gospels of Peter, Mary Magdalene, Thomas, Judas et al.  Instead of parables, those writers expressed themselves very explicitly and what I learned was that instead of adding up my sins, it is more important to recognize that God loves all of us equally and that I can do no less. I no longer consider myself a member of any recognized religion.  I do believe in an all loving God and I try to live my life as I think He would want me too.  I guess if I have to be labeled, I am spiritual but not religious.

Joseph Gentilini

Joe, simply beautiful!  Joe

David Mitchell

Joe D.

Hear! Hear!       I'm kind of on that track myself. 

-------------------

And Mark,

I enjoyed reading your wonderfully written piece. Isn't that one of thee basic quandries of all mankind? It gets into one of those endless arguments of belief that I used to enjoy so much on school. It reminds me of the questions Mark agonized over through most of his life - the younger, 1st Century physician who DID believe in God, but only an angry God who raised poeple up to become sick and die - - vs. the older Mark who came to see the healing power of Christ's selfless, unconditional love.

I cannot accept that God causes all this evil. But your question seems to based more on the word "allows" - a much more complicated argument. I am without a perfect answer. But I wonder if we have misunderstood the "gift" of free choice. Have we in fact turned it into a curse? Could it be that the Great Deceiver exists, and has laid all his evil and suffering out there in front of us as a trap, to lure us into a web of anger, blame, distrust, revenge, and hatred? Or worst of all, dispair?

I am sorry that I do not have the answer. I myself cannot "fix" all the evil in the world (though I used to think we were supposed to). I cannot stand to see human suffering, weather it is watching a former spouse (that I still loved) dying of cancer, a tragic mishap in a combat helicopter, or a newsreel from Alleppo. But I can choose be a light to the few I encounter. I mean, it's all I got man.

Our Irish ancestors had a saying; "We'll be dead a very long time." If that is so, I'll take my chances on the hope of everlasting life, as opposed to blame or no hope at all.

 (Just for kicks, humor me and take a peek at James, Chapter 2, verse 12)   

* And If you happen to have an  "NIV" translation handy - the last phrase is translated; "Mercy Triumphs over Judgement" - doesn't that sound strangely familiar? What if we drop a few letters in Triumphs?)

Alex, I'll try "Mercy" for $200 please.

Thomas McKeon

Well said Dave

Mark Schweickart

Dave,

As you facetiously mentioned in a previous post, it would be nice if guys like Jack, with his one word post of "Yikes," would restrain themselves so that wordy bastards like you, Tim and I could get a word in edgewise. That was pretty funny in that we do tend to go on a bit in our posts. The last one I did was done mostly as a way to not leave Tim out there on his own regarding where he comes down on the religious-belief spectrum. However, I think I should back off at this point, because as Tim said, politics and religion tend to make people uncomfortable. I don't think readers of this forum want to hear me going on and on about how I justify my atheistic/anti-theistic position.

However, I will  close this with one parting shot, that is esoteric in the extreme, but is something that really struck me years ago. I was reading about, of all things, the 13th century Albigensian Crusade in France, which was ordered by the Pope in Rome, calling for the extermination of a rival Christian Sect known as the Cathars, who were mostly located in and around Carcassone in southern France. When the Crusaders from Catholic Northern France, who were motivated not only by religious bloodlust, but also by the promise of sharing in the spoils of land belonging to the Cathars, attacked a town called Béziers, both the Catholics and the Cathars in the city, fearing the loss of their property more than their neighbor's religion, joined forces to oppose the Northern Crusaders. Unfortunately for the population of Béziers, they were over-run, and perhaps as many as 7000 were put to the sword that day. Here's the kicker that has stayed with me all of these years. When the  person in command was asked by one of his soldiers as to how to distinguish between the Catholics and the Cathars of the city, the commander replied, "Kill them all. God will recognize his own." And so it was done. The thing that haunted me is that this actually makes perfect sense. If you believe that there is a God in heaven waiting to toss those who die into either the fires of hell or limbo, or embrace the saved to join him in heaven, then what's the big deal? They were all going to die eventually, and what are a few earthlly years compared to all of eternity. And we can't simply fall back on "Thou shalt not murder," unless we are also willing to say our infallible Pope was completely wrong in ordering the murder of the Cathars. 

Okay, okay, I will stop my annoying prosyletizing now, and urge us to return to less controversial matters. Otherwise I will segue into other arguments that no one wants to hear. Don't get me started onn Transubstantiation.

Frank Ganley

In response or addition , comment on what Joe said about religion. I too over the years have become less interested ingoing to mass and more interest in who God is and how all this works and what is heaven and who's going or not. 

I will not bore you with what my thoughts are on God etc but concept that all of us including the worst of sinners such as Hitler will spend eternity with us.There is no hell and now the proof .

Have you ever been  mad at your children? Of course you have. Gave you ever been so made that they were sent to their room and told not to leave till you said it was time to come out. We are parents who love their children and we must see them. We address God as Lord, Our Father as he is our father. When we die we will go to do a little time on the rack for sins that we have offended God and He will direct us to our new eternal hone it is your room. As Jesus told us do not wonder or ask of the Lords thoughts or actions as we do not know how He works or plans. That is His job. When we are missed enough we are summoned to be with Him.even little bad boy Adolph one day will satisfy his debt and join in the warmth of the Lord. I'm sure he won't be out of his room for quite a while.

I now spend most of my thoughts with making sure I am obeying his rules and asking forgiveness.

Joseph Gentilini

I still find the Eucharist profound, but I agree with much of what Frank said, even about Adoph  Hitler.  What I pray for someone who has died, I said the traditional prayer, but a bit differently.  The prayer goes like this: Eternal rest grant to (name), O Lord and   and let perpetural light shine upon her/him, and may the souls of the (faithful) departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace.  I leave out the word 'faithful' because I want everyone to experience the mercy of God.  JOe

Mary Margaret Clark (Schultheis)

I have been following along the many reflective comments made these past couple of weeks.  I have withheld any response because the subject matter of where we have traveled on our personal journeys in matters of faith, holds many sensitive and complex components.  And so, as I have thought about each person's journey and where it has brought them, I wondered how best to offer my own thoughts.  It is true, as has been stated, that politics and religion are two topics which elicit varying degrees of passion, and yet, they do seem to be those topics about which we should try to have a respectful and civil dialogue because, of necessity, our lives are intertwined in and around them. 

I, myself, have very positive memories of sitting at our dining room table from the time I was a teenager, discussing with my parents, siblings and visiting relatives the pertinent news of the day…..be it the state of the nation/culture/religion.  It could be loud and messy at times, and while there was not always a general consensus of opinion, there was always, at the end of the day… food for thought.  I have found over many years that whenever my personal views about a various topic have been challenged, it has forced me to step away, confront the objection and to do a bit more reading and questioning to test if my original thoughts contained truth.   Which brings me to the conclusion of my comment here.   As one can not delve to deeply on this forum into all that it would take to give an adequate response to the issues surrounding our Catholic upbringing introduced by some, I thought that I would simply link to a podcast by a priest from the Detroit diocese that I have been listening to for the past several years.  This particular podcast is from a series titled "RCIA for Catholics"  (many of his parishoners were cradle Catholics and were searching for a means to understand the many layers to the foundation that was laid during their Catholic education) and was given in a presentation from 2007.  That. Is. All.  

As always, it has been great to be a part of this remarkable group :)

http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/5/a/f/5af689b1fb5255ca/RCIA_for_Catholics-The_Church.m4a?c_id=1737059&destination_id=13713&expiration=1489426385&hwt=7344ee89c5e9b0fa4b8a2c56a01cb1ad

David Mitchell

And hey Mark, 

Didn't the Catholics gouge all of the Cathar's eyes out - and then tie them together by the hundreds and "force march" them all over Languedoc to show as an "example".

Wow, I wonder if Bill Belichick has ever thought of that idea?  But we can rest assured, Roger Goodell would be all over that problem (within a decade or so).

Michael McLeod

Interesting, Mark, that the quote about killing indiscriminately and letting God sort them out goes back so far. I've heard it attributed to more modern military minds.

Grateful that we can touch on the subject of belief in a courteous way. That is the ultimate sign of respect for each other. It took me 40 years to arrive at my own conclusion and I'm assuming others have walked paths of their own over time and devoted serious thought to it along the way. Whatever gets you through the night.

On a separate subject: if you get a chance to see "I Am Not Your Negro," the James Baldwin biography, I highly recommend. He was such a brilliant voice, utterly different from all the rest, in the civil rights battle of our youth and young adulthood. He didn't lecture, he didn't give speeches. What he did was to set the stage and bring the battle to life, in that moment, right in front of your eyes. You didn't know what he was going to say next because he didn't know what he was going to say next. He was living it, creating it, as we all were. See him speak is like watching high-stakes improvisational theater. 

Timothy Lavelle

Mike n Mark....re; 'kill them all": we heard the remark "kill 'em all, let god sort 'em out" in VN fairly often. Years later I heard it attributed to the green berets who were often in harm's way. I was not a fighter...but for us all it sprang from the fact that there were rarely uniforms used by the opposing team! Villagers tilling rice paddies...do you till a rice paddy?...villagers tending rice paddies during the day became armed enemies with no uniforms at night. In later years when the NVA started their advances, uniforms and belt buckles became souvenirs. It was some sad $hit.

Boy I sure love the passion in the writing. Someday without pissing you all off I would write why I believe orgainzed religion is the world's longest lasting flea market. For now I would just like you to know that it makes a wanderer pause and think. Almost, wish.

Frank, thank you. My first question - if I was ever to hit The Gate - "You got Hitler in there?"

David Mitchell

I had every intent of not going into "that" war again, but I would like to offer a comment. 

Everybody's experience over there was often very different from another's. What Tim may have seen up north sounds quite diferent from my view in the Delta (far south). And I know another classmate who reads this forum (but remains silent) had an extremely different experience also. And I am sure the intent our missions and duties were probably radically different. But in my tour and a half, flying an Air Cav Scout ("Loach") helicopter, in a mission you have never heard of (nor would you probably even believe) - I almost never saw the reckless "out of control" behavior we hear so much about. Maybe we were lucky enough to have some damn good (and disciplined) CO's, or maybe we were just a rare exception, but we rarely saw or behaved as some accounts (or movies) might lead one to beleive.

I'm not saying it didn't exist. I'm just saying it was not the case for everyone.

And BTW, I'm not ignorant enough to try to defend some of our political decisons that brough about that conflict. Lots of questions about those "Gulf of Tonkin Incidnent Reports"  and a whole lot that followed. 

Frank Ganley

T​im and the rest, First off I believe in killing them all and letting God sorting them out, In the case now of ISIS they must be because of they're   warped sense of relegion. But let us conquet other subjecta. First Jews were the first city planners. I don't knowi f Peter Sutyvesant had any jews on board at first but when he left new amsterdam and income the british you jnow they had some !  what is so important having a jew with the settlers for city plannibg. THEY DON'T LIKE TO BE LOST.  They followed their crazy leader all over the desert and until the final days (40 turbulent years) and once they hit the city lost no more will they be. How is that? Columbus ohio was built by farmers. Good  farmers rotten city planners. Here is the proof that Columbus was founded by farmers, The main streets are broad and High, jew 1st street and 1st avenue. Oh thats remarkable you say! which is which Str E ets go east and west, ave N ues goes N and south. Where is cooke road visitor asks, but if he is looking for  say 184st and 1st ave he knows right where to go. Thank you Moses. He gave us a lot in his crazy years of wandering. The second thing i'd like to prove is that there is Heaven. So many say "there is no heaven or hell when the light goes out there is no more. You mean to tell me that millions of years ago we just walked out of a swamp and poof we are homo Sapiens, we are amazing to be able to change like that. I say "Bullware (i know it spelled wrong,its for effect) nature is great to change and adapt but not creat. ANd here comes the proof, the examples we will use the Queen of England and a south vietnam farmwer. Now the Queen, ( What do you think Phillip calls Elizabeth in the middle of the throws of passion, i dpgress) has everyone tending to her every wish, desire, or want. DO you think she has ever gone to the bathroom alone, no , there is someone there to handle the duties of day to day operations, The meals she eats (pardon me ) are all fit for a queen. Her clothes, everything top notch. Now things are a bit different for our boy the farmer we'll call him agricola agricolae (f) farmer. So agricola wakes, doesn't own a toothbrush and has a wonderful morning repast of rice with a few roach for protein.           www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnnHprUGKF0                                                                                                                                                                                     He picks up his tools and walks to the patty where he spends his day with muddy, snake infested, rat running, stagnant all the way up to his due dads water with no onr tending to any of his needs. Sad day they both die. Lets just say that when the lights go out the party is over. Now really does that seem fair, NO, Now the Lord has said come to my house it is a house with many rooms. Everyone can be with the Lord in his own house that the Lord provided and at the level of faITH they deserve. Now every morning Agricola walks out his front door seen the queen , waves and says hey Hey Go go go little queenie. www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2a2Nrw_6G0

Hope this helps for a nice day, i have no idea where the green came from but its nice. Next we'll discuss is nuclear fussion the way to heat and cool your house.

Deborah Alexander (Rogers)

Wow!  What an amazing and thoughtful discussion.  It strikes me that all of us who have been raised with probably 12 years of Catholic education can still have this discussion without rancor for those who do not believe  as we do.  Our faith or lack thereof is our own journey, and our choice to have or not have a relationship with God is so personal, formed by our own experiences in our 68 years of life.  We seem to show in this discussion that we can accept both points of view in our classmates and friends.  At the very least, it makes us think about our own beliefs, which is always a good thing.  I am so thankful that we have this forum to connect us all, and I am so impressed with some of the "wordsmiths" among us!  There is real talent here, so keep it coming!!  Happy St. Patrick's Day to all!

James Hamilton, M. D.

Joseph Gentilini

Interesting thoughts lately, the last one from Jim Hamilton, about God.  I left the RCC in 1978 because I was so angry at God over my sexual orientation and the pain it caused me in life.  What brought me back was the Eucharist.  It is there that all my unfinished aspect of my life and thefinished ones, my weaknesses and my strengths, and everything else come together in the Christ.  My  book shows some of this journey.  I have seen God in my life, in the past, the present, and the future.  As one Trappist monk said to me yers ago, "Joe, I hope there is something there on the other side.  If there is something good, I'll enjoy it; if there is nothing, I won't be aware of it anyway."  Joe

Joseph D. McCarthy

All of these religious conversations remind me of the time that the Catholic Priest and the Lutheran Minister invited the new Rabbi to go fishing. 

After they rowed out to the middle of the lake the Minister asked the Priest to pass the special lures.  After checking, the priest said he must have left them on shore and said he would get them.  To which he proceeded to step out of the boat, walk to shore, retrieve the lurse and walk back to the boat.  After they had been fishing for awhile the priest asked for another beer from the cooler.  To which the minister proclaimed the cooler was empty and that he would go back to the car and get another case.  He then stepped out of the boat, walked back to shore, and returned with another case of beer.

By now the Rabbi, new to the community, determined that they were testing his faith.  After a short period he asked for another turkey sandwich.  When the priest and the minister stated that they were still in the car; the rabbi jumped up and said he would get them.  And before the priest and the minister could stop him he stepped out of the boat and started to sink.

At that point the minister turned to the priest and said, "Do you think we should have told him where the rocks were before he stepped out.

Joseph Gentilini

I laughed outloud!!  Good one, Joe
 

James Hamilton, M. D.

THE VALUE OF A CATHOLIC EDUCATION: A young boy was having difficulty in public schools in regard to arithmetic. His parents decided to send him to a parochial grade school. Soon he was studying more and his grades in math drastically improved. His folks were amazed and when his mother asked him what led him to be such a better student he replied "They're really serious about math here, mom, above the blackboard there's this guy hanging on a plus sign!!!"

(OK, Joe McC, now look what you've started!)

David Mitchell

I am moved to relate one of the saddest of family stories.

I had distant cousins who lived in Dublin back in the 60's and the father, young Danny O'Brien worked at the Guiness Brewery. He was married to Mary Eileen and they had three small children at the time. A frantic phone call came to the house ond day, and Mary Eileen was summoned to the brewery for an emergency. When she arrived she was met with the news that Danny had just died by drowning in one of the large vats of beer. Mary Eilleen was completely overcome, and as she sat there in the forman's office crying her eyes out, she asked, "Oh dear God, he must have had a terrible ending, now didn't he?" The foreman answered, "Oh no Love, I don't think so - he got out three times to go to the bathroom."