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09/28/20 08:40 PM #8147    

Timothy Lavelle

Oh my god.....oooooo my god.....Joe, fingers crossed for you and Thank You sooo much.

It's "Time will tell"!

All my life I thought it was "Tim will tell" and have been sooo very talkative because....

If you were believing that, I have a course online, stupid humor 101, that you really need.

Yeah Jim. Capitol Donuts. And Clare, girl, there is NO donut that beats the "Do I make homeroom on time or go to Old Man's Cave donut". So much angst, so many excuses for Baby Baer to forge!

But....Phil Enright anyone?


09/28/20 11:09 PM #8148    

 

Michael McLeod

Mary Clare:

I stole donuts from the Omar warehouse and distribution center on Oakland Park between Indianola and the railroad tracks, where donuts and bread and whatever else was delivered from their bakery. From the bedroom of my home on East North Broadway I could see the trucks deliver a load at night, and there was a lapse of time between when the big delivery truck would back up to the warehouse with its load and the time when the crew would arrive to unload the truck.  For some reason or other the sliding back door of the truck was always left open, and there was just enough of a space between the building and the back of the truck that I could climb right in and grab a couple of boxes of donuts from the stacks of rectangular wire trays filled with bread, rolls and other baked goods your neighborhood Omar man - "ma! hey ma! here comes the Omar man! - would deliver the next morning.

That's how gangsta I was. Not like I was some cheap-ass juvenile delinquent grabbing a Superman comic book from Steve Brody's drug story. I had better game than that. And then to top it all off I did an occasional good deed ala Robin Hood by taking a dozen stolen donuts down to the unwitting nuns at the IC nunnery on East North Broadway every now and then, which is bound to get me time off in purgatory. Winning!

.

 


09/29/20 09:56 AM #8149    

 

Michael McLeod

As a preview for tonight's debate from the Washington Post's fact-checker team, a cool summation of the political bs on both sides. This is also part of my ongoing promise to provide strategies for telling truth from fiction in our confusing, wild wild west infowars world. A story with hyperlinks to multiple sources is likely to be more accurate and credible than one that relies on a narrow field of opinions and a low count of credible sources.

 

Both President Trump and former vice president Joe Biden enter Tuesday night’s debate with histories of making false, misleading or exaggerated statements, often well-documented by The Fact Checker.

Biden’s first presidential campaign in 1987 imploded after charges of plagiarism and false claims about his academic record. Trump, from his first appearance in the media nearly half a century ago, has routinely embellished and misled about his achievements and finances. As president, Trump has made more than 20,000 false or misleading statements, according to The Fact Checker’s database.

But not all falsehoods are equal, and there are significant differences between the two men in how they mangle the facts. Here’s the tale of the tape in how Trump and Biden measure up before their first presidential debate.

Biden

Biden, with nearly a half century in politics, is an old-fashioned politician. He is prone to exaggeration and not often precise about policy issues, in contrast to more disciplined politicians like former president Barack Obama or former Florida governor Jeb Bush. Biden especially gets in trouble because of his loquacious nature, though he has tried to rein in his stemwinders during this presidential run. He often indicates he is knowledgeable about complex policy issues.

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Many of Biden’s factual errors are dismissed as “gaffes,” innocent mess-ups. In a recent interview with CNNJill Biden, his wife, sought to dismiss the issue: “After Donald Trump, you cannot even say the word gaffe.”

But it’s more than just gaffes. Here are some prime examples of Biden falsehoods.

Dubious numbers

Biden does not always get the numbers right.

In one famous example as vice president, Biden in 2011 touted an Obama-era jobs bill by claiming the number of rapes in Flint, Mich., had, depending on the hour, doubled, tripled and even quadrupled because the number of police had been reduced. There was no evidence to support any of these statistics, earning him Four Pinocchios and an editorial in the Delaware County Daily Times titled “Biden plays fast and loose with the facts.”

More recently, while running for president, Biden has falsely claimed that if Trump had handled the coronavirus pandemic properly, everyone who had died in the United States would be alive (there is no data to support this), that the trade deficit with China has never been higher (it has dropped in the last two years) and that Trump has never condemned white supremacists (Trump has, even as he mitigated it with his “both sides” comment). Biden also routinely inflates numbers, such as saying Trump admitted to Washington Post associate editor Bob Woodward that covid-19 was seven times more contagious than the flu, when in fact Trump had said five times.

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Garbled messaging

Biden’s talking points sometimes get mangled together. After an attack on the Medicare-for-all plan promoted by Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) during the primaries, Biden’s staff admitted:

  • He meant to say the plan would double the federal budget, except for interest on the debt, not that it was twice the federal budget.
  • He meant to say a tax on employers was like a deductible from your paycheck, not a deductible for your income tax.
  • He meant to say the employer tax was 7.5 percent, not “5 percent and 4 percent.”

During another debate, Biden falsely said more than 90 percent of the American people believe we have to get assault weapons off the street. Support for banning the sale of assault weapons usually ranges from 50 to 60 percent in recent surveys. Biden mixed up the statistics for polling on expanding background checks, which does get support in the 90 percent range.

Biden even attacked Trump once for fingerprinting food stamp recipients — when he meant to refer to former New York mayor Mike Bloomberg.

Revisionist history

Few politicians like to admit error. Biden handles it by offering a revisionist history that obscures his original policy position.

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In trying to explain his vote in favor of the 2003 invasion of Iraq, Biden has claimed that President George W. Bush misled him — which a Bush spokesman denies — and that he opposed the war from “the moment it started.” Actually, for more than a year, Biden repeatedly defended his vote to authorize an invasion as “just” and “right.” After The Fact Checker pointed that out, Biden said he “misspoke.”

Similarly, Biden’s explanation of his advice to Obama on whether to authorize the mission to kill Osama bin Laden has evolved over time. He initially said he urged Obama to not go and take more time to gather intelligence, but now he says he privately urged Obama to go. But that has not been confirmed by Obama.

Biden’s involvement in the civil rights movement, in his retelling, also has grown more expansive over time. Campaigning this year, Biden suggested he walked out of restaurants and picketed movie theaters. As far as we could determine, Biden participated in just one walkout at one restaurant. He also picketed a segregated movie theater.

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Since the emergence of the novel coronavirus, Biden has often oversold what he wrote in a late January opinion article for USA Today, claiming he said it was a pandemic. The USA Today piece is more of an attack on Trump and a recollection of Obama administration steps taken against the 2014 Ebola outbreak than a detailed plan for action against a possible pandemic. But at the same time, Biden indicated he took the threat seriously, even if he did not explicitly say a pandemic was on the way.

Invented tales

Biden sometimes tells stories that appear to have little basis in reality.

Earlier this year, Biden told voters at least three times that he was arrested in South Africa while trying to visit Nelson Mandela in Soweto. Mandela, later president of South Africa, was imprisoned on Robben Island at the time, making the whole story an impossibility. Eventually, the campaign said Biden was separated from the Congressional Black Caucus members he was traveling with at an airport, but that did not make much sense, either. (Another White member of Congress said it did not happen.)

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Last year, Biden told a moving tale of visiting Afghanistan and pinning a medal on a regretful soldier that jumbled elements of at least three actual events into one story. “In the space of three minutes, Biden got the time period, the location, the heroic act, the type of medal, the military branch and the rank of the recipient wrong, as well as his own role in the ceremony,” The Washington Post reported.

Nasty personal attacks

Biden will fault what he views as policy mistakes, but generally he does not make nasty personal attacks based on falsehoods.

Trump

The president comes from real estate background where what he once called “truthful hyperbole” is regarded as the norm. While in office, he has told dozens of falsehoods and misleading statements almost every day — in news conferences, prepared speeches, interviews and remarks to the media.

 

Biden makes mistakes and tells tall tales, but he often drops them or withdraws them if his error is highlighted in the media. Trump, by contrast, doubles down and repeats the false claim over and over. Indeed, when challenged with irrefutable evidence that his statement is wrong, Trump will grasp at the flimsiest pieces of evidence to insist he is right, even if the evidence contradicts or undermines what he had originally claimed.

We can only scratch the surface of Trump’s propensity for falsehoods in this article — The Fact Checker published a best-selling book on them — but here are some highlights. One of Trump’s biggest problems is that his knowledge of policy details is thin, so he often falls back on the same old spin when the questions try to probe deeper.

Dubious numbers

Trump exaggerates about just about everything.

 

He falsely claims (hundreds of times) that before the pandemic, he built the greatest economy in U.S. history; even at its best under Trump, it was not as good as the U.S. economy in the 1950s, 1960s or 1980s, and it was already beginning to stumble when the pandemic arrived. He says he passed the biggest tax cut in U.S. history, but it ranks eighth. He says he scored massive job-creating deals with Saudi Arabia, but the numbers are wildly inflated (and the jobs are mostly in Saudi Arabia).

Trump routinely cites statistics on immigration enforcement but flips the script depending whether border apprehensions are going up (“so many people arrested”) or going down (“so few people are crossing”).

Trump has played similar games with economic statistics. In Trump’s version of history, he “inherited a mess” with “millions of people out there” seeking jobs, whereupon he “accomplished an economic turnaround of historical proportions.” But it was Obama who inherited an economic crisis, with the country shedding 800,000 jobs a month when he took office in 2009. Eight years later, Trump took over when the economy was adding about 200,000 jobs a month — as it continued to do through his first three years.

 

Even after nearly four years as president, Trump appears to have little idea of how NATO is funded and operates. He repeatedly claimed other members of the alliance “owed” money to the United States and they were delinquent in their payments. Then he claimed credit for the money “pouring in” as a result of his jawboning, even though much of the increase in those countries’ spending on their own defense had been set under guidelines arranged during the Obama administration. Trump has touted new NATO funding numbers that are fanciful — and has given himself all of the credit for the increase.

Garbled messaging

Trump remains relentlessly on message, repeating his false claims over and over, so he does not often mangle his talking points as much as Biden. But Trump does often speak in discursive, meandering monologues, making his meaning unclear. He is also often flippant. That sometimes gives him plausible deniability or allows him to claim that he was only joking.

Revisionist history

Trump never admits he made a mistake, and he often spins fairy tales that have little basis in reality.

For instance, he repeatedly claims he got his start in business with only a $1 million loan from his father, which he then turned into a $10 billion empire. Not only is his reported wealth dubious, but also, after examining more than 100,000 confidential documents, the New York Times concluded that Fred Trump’s “small loan” was $60.7 million, or $140 million in 2018 dollars, much of which was never repaid. In all, the Times found that Trump received the equivalent of at least $413 million in today’s dollars from his father’s real estate empire.

Trump’s biggest domestic defeat of his presidency was his failed drive to repeal the Affordable Care Act. The effort that collapsed in the Senate would have weakened a key tenet of Obamacare: protections for people with preexisting health conditions. After that defeat, Trump’s rhetoric shifted: He falsely asserted more than 100 times that Republicans had protected people with preexisting conditions. In 2020, he even tweeted, “I was the person who saved Pre-Existing Conditions in your Healthcare.” He recently signed an executive order that he claimed would protect preexisting conditions. But he has never offered a plan that would do so and repeatedly claimed (falsely) he effectively eliminated Obamacare.

Similarly, one of Trump’s most famous campaign promises was that Mexico would pay for the border barrier he is building along the southern border. Not only did Trump redirect billions of dollars from military projects over the objections of Congress, but he keeps asserting that Mexico will pay for the wall in some mysterious fashion (such as through a trade deal or possibly adding toll booths at the border).

In battling the coronavirus pandemic, Trump has repeatedly tried to erase his original lackadaisical response with a story of how he took bold action against China with a travel ban opposed by all of his advisers. But Trump’s advisers pressed him to impose the ban, while he was initially skeptical, and the less-than-total ban came as many flights already were canceled and other countries were taking similar actions. Then Trump made the World Health Organization a scapegoat even though he had initially praised WHO’s efforts to stem the disease.

Invented tales

Trump frequently promotes conspiracy theories and asserts claims that have no basis in reality.

Some of Trump’s stories are simply puzzling. Trump on four separate occasions has falsely asserted that Obama had such a bad relationship with the Philippines that the country’s leaders would not let him land his presidential jet during an official visit, leaving him circling above the airport. Obama actually made two visits where he was warmly received.

Trump repeatedly said U.S. Steel was building six to eight new steel plants, but that wasn’t true. He said that as president, Obama gave citizenship to 2,500 Iranians during the nuclear-deal negotiations. It didn’t happen. Over and over, Trump claimed the Uzbekistan-born man who in 2017 was accused of killing eight people with a pickup truck in New York had brought two dozen relatives to the United States through chain migration. The actual number is zero.

But Trump’s tall tales also can be more nefarious. Trump has concocted conspiracy theories about Obama allegedly spying on his campaign, which he sometimes labels “Obamagate.” It started with Trump’s false claim in 2017 that Obama put a wiretap on him. Then that merged with a report that an FBI informant in Europe, a professor named Stefan Halper, met with at least three people working on the Trump campaign in Europe. A former campaign aide, Carter Page, was subject to an FBI warrant. Now Trump is focused on a January 2017 meeting Obama held in the Oval Office. Somehow, without much explanation, Trump has turned this meeting into a high crime that he considers to be treason.

Similarly, as the election has neared and Trump remains behind in the polls, the president has promoted bogus claims about the dangers of voting by mail. He also, without evidence, has claimed Biden must be on performance-enhancing drugs.

Nasty personal attacks

If Trump believes someone has crossed him, he will respond with a tsunami of untruths. His behavior is highly unusual for a politician, let alone a president. Without even a bit of humor, Trump lobs insults filled with falsehoods, changes history to denigrate opponents and fabricates tall tales about his foes out of whole cloth.

The examples are too numerous to mention and are probably familiar to readers. Trump falsely accused Rep. Ilhan Omar (D) of Minnesota of supporting the terrorist group behind the 9/11 attacks. He smeared Sen. Richard Blumenthal (D-Conn.) as “Danang Richard,” even though Blumenthal never described himself as a war hero in Vietnam or claimed to have fought in Danang. Trump invented a story about House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) “dancing in the streets” of Chinatown as the coronavirus emerged, saying she was responsible for “many deaths.” (Not only did Pelosi take the coronavirus more seriously than Trump, but San Francisco has had relatively few deaths.)

The Bottom Line

Both Biden and Trump have provided lots of fodder for fact-checkers. But Biden’s falsehoods tend to occur once — hence they are termed “gaffes” — or are withdrawn or dropped after criticism. Some of his errors are strange, but they generally do not have a nasty edge, and he does not engage in ad hominem attacks. Biden also exaggerates in broad strokes on complex policies to make himself appear smarter. Depending on your perspective, Biden is in the middleweight or welterweight class.

Trump, however, is the heavyweight champion of falsehoods. Trump repeats false statistics on everything, almost as if to will them to be facts. He frequently seems to inhabit a world of his own creation, spreading conspiracy theories and assuming the worst of his foes.

When the fact-checking is completed after tonight’s debate, it likely will not be scored as an even match.


09/29/20 01:44 PM #8150    

Timothy Lavelle

Hey,

We need to hear from Joe again. Read Calistoga was evacuated.

I am going to vote for Joe, no matter what happens tonight. So, I'm not sure about watching the debate. I own up that I owe it to all right thinking 'Muricans to watch it. Especially after my hate crusade against Truth...no, meant Trump. Truth and Trump. Don't they just look strange together? So, though I owe it to you...please put that on my tab. 

As a break from that...if only for a few minutes...this is a pretty phenominal evening...at 5:40 PM Jupiter will come up over the eastern horizon looking bright n shiny. It'll be the brightest thing if the eastern sky at that time.

Sing along with me..."but wait there's morrre"...

Literally right behind Jupiter, trying to catch up and arrising maybe 15 minutes later in the same spot on the horizon is your new and improved Saturn with freshly brushed rings.

At 7:00 PM up comes the Moon. 

but wait there's.....yeah yeah yeah.

At 9 PM...Hey, Al Judy...for you ex-Marines...Mickey's big hand is on the 12 and...yeah yeah, okay.....UP COMES....wait for it....wait......MARS!! It will br bright as hell and rise just a handswidth to the North.

Sorry for dragging this on but not far behind Mars, Uranus will be showing itself!

So, Jupiter, Saturn, Moon, Mars, Uranus...almost in line at 9:00 PM with Mars looking spectacular, very bright with red highlights. That is pretty flipping phenominal for your viewing. Take binoculars if you have a pair.

Party on.

    

 

 


09/29/20 01:44 PM #8151    

 

Mary Margaret Clark (Schultheis)

https://www.axios.com/new-york-city-voters-report-mail-in-ballot-errors-2fece58a-6384-40d0-97aa-03e8cd67f4fa.html?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=onhrs


09/29/20 03:24 PM #8152    

 

James Hamilton, M. D.

Tim,

I surmise you are an amateur astronomer! Do you have a telescope?

There is a guy in our area of town who is a super serious amateur astronomer, so much so, he built this in his front yard.

He lives in another galaxy!

Jim


09/29/20 03:58 PM #8153    

 

John Jackson

London (CNN) — Five parrots have been removed from public view at a British wildlife park after they started swearing at customers.

The foul-mouthed birds were split up after they launched a number of different expletives at visitors and staff just days after being donated to Lincolnshire Wildlife Park in eastern England.

"It just went ballistic, they were all swearing," the venue's chief executive Steve Nichols told CNN Travel on Tuesday. "We were a little concerned about the children."

"I get called a fat t**t every time I walk past," Nichols complained.  The African grey parrots -- named Eric, Jade, Elsie, Tyson and Billy -- were given to the park from five different owners within the same week, and shared a quarantining facility together before being placed on display.

But staff immediately noticed that the birds shared a propensity to fly off the handle.  "They literally, within a very short period of time, starting swearing at each other," Nichols said. "'F**k off' is the most common one," he explained -- "it's a very easy one for them to learn" -- but the birds would utter "anything you can think of."

Most customers enjoyed the talent once the parrots were displayed. "The visitors were giving them as much back as what they were giving to them," Nichols said.  But concern for younger customers forced staff to split up the birds and temporarily remove them from the park's public areas. Staff now hope the birds' language will become more family-friendly now that they have been separated.

"To take in a swearing parrot isn't an unusual thing, it's something that happens probably three or four times a year," Nichols said. But the pandemic has led to a surge in donations, as owners spend more time with their birds and decide to give them to parks that can provide them with a larger living space, he explained.


09/29/20 06:52 PM #8154    

Timothy Lavelle

Jim,

Wow! That's quite the fancy private observatory. The seeming empty room at the bottom houses a pillar used to mount tge telescope on in the upper floor. 

I have a couple of reflectors, the biggest at 8 inches. I've really liked astronomy all my life but sadly I have left it until sort of late to enjoy. My brain does not want to absorb all the new data easily and using a telescope does not come second nature to me...I'm sort of clumsy. Astrophotography is currently way far out of my abilities. 

I tried to talk my wife into buying a house in Chico, CA, cause it came with a neat observatory. She eclipsed me! 

These late life hobbies seem to help these days. I am also messing around a bit with shortwave radio!

Tim


09/29/20 07:35 PM #8155    

 

Michael McLeod

I love the part about the visitors giving it right back to the swearing parrots. Give the birds the bird!


09/29/20 11:19 PM #8156    

 

David Mitchell

And the winner is........

R U kidding me? That was a disgrace!  Brings up the same question I asked 4 years ago - Are these really the best two poeple we've got? Lord help us.

 

How about that one really below-the-belt cheap shot when the Donald said, 
"I don't know Beau."  Aside from all the misleading (non)facts, that was inexcuseable!  What a sniveling coward!

 

I hope the next moderator is equipped with a pea shooter and some peas. Or a paintball gun. Maybe a loud air horn would be good. Or a button to shut off their mikes. 

Disgraceful!


09/30/20 10:34 AM #8157    

 

Michael McLeod

It was just so ugly.

Just so embarrassing.

Just so demeaning for us as a country.

I couldn't watch. Turned it off. Felt like little kid in my bedroom holding my hands to my ears as my parents were downstairs screaming at each other.

Rather watch swearing parrots.


09/30/20 11:11 AM #8158    

Timothy Lavelle

OPINION: Like many, I've just seen clips. Trump is a non-gentleman phenomenon who has changed our political style of communicating. BRIEFLY.

It may be hard to believe, but just like you finally "feel yourself again" after a bad cold or the flu, our national debate over very important issues will move back to pre-trumpian times. It will seek a natural equilibrium that it was much more familiar with pre 2016. In future discussions, name calling will be labeled "trump-like remarks were made". 

Joe no doubt could have done better but how did the guys from his own party fare against Trump's bullying style? Joe is old school politician enough that he turned to the camera and spoke his truth to us as people. 

Patience. Patience. Right will out.


09/30/20 11:31 AM #8159    

 

Michael McLeod

Damn straight Tim let's look at the bright side!

Don’t be so grouchy. Somebody’s pleased.

 

"Far-right groups celebrated on social media Tuesday night after President Trump responded to a debate question about white supremacists by saying that the extremist Proud Boys, a male-only group known for its penchant for street violence, should “stand back and stand by.”

The comments almost instantly got enshrined in memes, including one depicting Trump in one of the Proud Boys’ signature polo shirts. Another meme showed Trump’s quote alongside an image of bearded men carrying American flags and appearing to prepare for a fight.

 

These and other laudatory images spread with particular speed on the conservative social media site Parler and also channels on the encrypted chat app Telegram, according to researchers. One prominent Proud Boys supporter on Parler said Trump appeared to give permission for attacks on protesters, adding that “this makes me so happy.”

 

 


09/30/20 12:03 PM #8160    

 

John Jackson

I disagree with the “pox on both your houses” sentiments expressed by Dave and Mike above about the debate. I watched the whole thing, painful as it was.  Trump, with his non-stop interruptions, was clearly the transgressor.   Biden interrupted much less, but if he hadn’t interrupted some he would have undoubtedly been branded as weak and ineffective – unwilling to stand up to the bully.

There was also no doubt who Chris Wallace, the moderator, thought was at fault.  Time and again (and with little effect), he tried to make Trump shut up.  One exchange:

Wallace: “The country would be better served if we allowed both people to speak with fewer interruptions. I’m appealing to you, sir, to do it."

Trump (nodding to Biden): “And him, too?”

Wallace: “Well, frankly, you’ve been doing more interrupting.”

I hopped around the networks afterward and (with the exception of the ever-meanspirited Hannity), the consensus seemed to be that while Joe may not have had a great night, he had held his own, and Trump had hurt himself with his tactics.  You know Trump had a bad night when former Sen. Rick Santorum (in my mind the most reliable Republican shill next to Hannity) said on CNN that Trump had done himself “real damage”.

 


09/30/20 12:19 PM #8161    

 

Joseph D. McCarthy

The winds shifted yesterday and the fire, hopefully permanently, moved East from Santa Rosa, I am located about 8 -10 miles South, SouthWest.  However, it is bearing down on Calistoga to the East in Napa county and the surrounding areas.  Already a number of wineries and some vineyards have burned.  The air was almost breathable yesterday.  This morning the air was fog like without the smell of fire.

Time to move to Washington state or back to Oregon.  OH, wait, they have fires raavaging in sections of both states.  The Snow in Ohio is looking good again.

Joe

 


09/30/20 01:15 PM #8162    

 

David Mitchell

Joe,

It's too far back in the Forum posts for me to find. Can you tell us again what the name of your town is?

Watching and praying.


09/30/20 01:28 PM #8163    

 

David Mitchell

John,

Make no mistake. I thought Chump was by far, the worst of the two - utterly disgarcefull and embarrassing. But Joe wasn't exactly sharp with his counterpunches. 

And "Stand back and stand by" is a pretty frighteneing thought. I hope all the gun lobby folks are comfortable with groups of men showing up at these protests with semi-autmatic rifles, helmets, and body armor.

Imagine, a 17 year-old kid running through the streets of Kenosha with a C.A.R.15, shooting at people. "Look mommy! See how brave and patriotic I am? I've got a gun."


09/30/20 09:03 PM #8164    

 

Michael McLeod

Whatever, John.

I think this single sentence I found in The Atlantic serves as the most accurate debate review I've seen so far:

 

No one knows more about public life than he or she did before this disaster began; some people know less; and everyone feels and looks worse.


09/30/20 09:14 PM #8165    

 

Michael McLeod

On another front I love this turn of phrase from the Times about how erratic Trump has been in talking about, complaining about, ignoring, occasionally recommending, but mainly dismissing the usefulness of wearing masks. That's our prez! Cute, ain't he?

 

The most striking feature of Trump’s stance on masks is that it was never consistent. Trump was for masks before he was against masks before he was for them before he was against them. Today, his attitude is best described as existing in a kind of quantum superposition that covers all possible positions at once.


09/30/20 10:45 PM #8166    

 

Michael McLeod

Quite a blockbuster investigative story in the NY Times today about the drummed-up voter fraud story.

Here are the high points of the story as noted in the newspaper's summary of its investigation. I might provide some exerpts later on.

 

The specter of widespread voter fraud has been a cornerstone of President Trump’s efforts to dispute the Nov. 3 election should he lose. A New York Times Magazine investigation published on Wednesday has found that the idea, based on a flimsy set of sensationalist, misleading or outright false claims, was intentionally planted in the public discourse as part of a decades-long disinformation campaign by the Republican Party and outside actors.

Though the goals of the campaign complement and build on long-running disenfranchisement efforts aimed at Black and Latino voters, the investigation shows that the Trump administration has used the full force of the federal government, from the Department of Homeland Security to the Postal Service, to prop up limp claims of fraud as no White House has ever before.

The strategy was hatched soon after Mr. Trump won the 2016 election and has included the involvement of top officials, including the president and Vice President Mike Pence.

Despite the attention paid to it by administration officials and right-wing media, voter fraud is a largely nonexistent problem. Law enforcement investigations have repeatedly failed to find major wrongdoing in cases hyped for political gain, often based on sloppy data analysis.

 

To get the full scale of the disinformation efforts and the facts behind the claims, read the entire investigation here. It is based on a review of thousands of pages of court records and interviews with more than 100 key players.

But for those with limited time, here are the main takeaways.

Trump is taking an old strategy to new extremes.

Efforts to suppress the vote are nothing new. Politicians in the Reconstruction era tried to deny the vote to newly freed slaves; the passage of the Voting Rights Act in 1965 led to a raft of new efforts to restrict access to the polls; and throwing out ballots on claims of fraud may have delivered President George W. Bush his pivotal, razor-thin victory in Florida in 2000.

What’s different now is the extent to which the administration has focused on such claims, and the involvement of various arms of the government. Within weeks of his inauguration, Mr. Trump began setting up a commission to investigate voter fraud that was ultimately disbanded after a flurry of lawsuits. (Its duties were transferred to the Department of Homeland Security.)

At least four major agencies, including the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Postal Service, have been pulled into voter-fraud claims. In one case, the C.D.C. quietly altered its guidance about mail-in voting to make misleading claims about the safety of absentee ballots.

Its elections webpage no longer specifically mentioned mail-in voting as a safer alternative to in-person voting. The changes, which have not been previously reported, addressed mail ballots only in a brief section about possible dangers associated with them, suggesting that workers allow mail to sit for a few hours before handling it “to further reduce risk” and to carefully disinfect all machinery that comes into contact with it. Its final point: “Mail-in voting can make it more difficult for voters with disabilities to exercise their right to vote.” This was misleading. Mail voting is the primary means of voting for many people with disabilities.

Pence played a larger role than was previously known.

In 2016, the vice president touted a case that he has portrayed as a major voter-fraud scheme in his home state, Indiana. But the case involved registration applications that had been flagged by the group that submitted them, and most charges were dropped.

His office also played a large role in the defunct voter-fraud commission. Mr. Pence assigned two senior aides to the team, including his general counsel at the time, Mark Paoletta.

The commission included Matthew Dunlap, a Democrat who, as Maine’s secretary of state, bonded with Kris Kobach, the Kansas secretary of state who effectively ran the operation. Mr. Dunlap said he was quickly sidelined after others began to consider him a “saboteur” when he questioned their tactics.

Dunlap came to see Kobach and his cohort as “voter-fraud vampire hunters” who treated any rare example of actual fraud, no matter how accidental or inconsequential, as proof of its ubiquity.

Most claims of fraud have fallen apart upon investigation.

Many claims about supposed fraud center on dead voters, double voters and noncitizen voters — the professed targets of efforts to remove a vast number of names from voter rolls. But the names selected for removal are often based on sloppy data analysis, and hundreds of thousands of legitimate voters have been wrongfully blocked in the efforts, despite scarce examples of such fraud actually happening.

Law enforcement has also played a crucial role in promoting the myth. Republicans have repeatedly pointed to investigations and indictments related to supposedly widespread voter fraud — but subsequent investigations have usually failed to find any such thing.

Still, Democrats are worried that Attorney General William P. Barr could focus on such accusations as legal justification for Mr. Trump’s calls to send federal law enforcement to polling stations on Election Day.

It is remarkable, but not at all accidental, that a narrative built from minor incidents, gross exaggeration and outright fabrication is now at the center of the effort to re-elect the president. As we approach an election in which the threat of voter fraud is being used as a justification for unprecedented legal and political interventions in our democratic process, it is important to understand what this claim actually represents: It is nothing short of a decades-long disinformation campaign — sloppy, cynical and brazen, but often quite effective — carried out by a consistent cast of characters with a consistent story line.


09/30/20 11:24 PM #8167    

 

James Hamilton, M. D.

As for the debate, who won or lost is in the minds of those who watched them, not what they read in the papers or which network they watched after it was over.The left is always quoting left leaning publications, the right, right leaning ones. This Forum seems to have more quoting the former rather than the latter. I prefer to think on my own. 

​​​​Now, as for voter fraud, I find it interesting that those on the left in this country deny how much of a problem it is, and yet on another topic, racism, how systemically widespresd it is. Just today I talked on the phone with a woman from another state ( not Colorado, Ohio or New York) who had recently received 3 "mail in ballots" in the mail, each with her name printed on it in different forms. That had also happened to her husband. Literally, she could have voted three times. She and her spouse are retired from a profession whose union is strongly aligned with the Democratic party.

Just my thoughts...

Jim 

 

 

 


10/01/20 09:36 AM #8168    

 

Michael McLeod

I prefer to consult multiple sources, then do my thinking. That's the point I've been trying to make. Common sense helps, too. If this guy had legitimate grasp of the issues, he'd be talking about them instead of shouting insults. If he weren't behind in the polls hey wouldn't be ramping up the "I'm being cheated" myths. Speaking of myths, whatever happened to Obamagate?

 

"Of all the election misinformation this year, false and misleading information about voting by mail has been the most rampant, according to Zignal Labs, a media insights company.

Just how much bigger has it been? Of the 13.4 million mentions of voting by mail on social media; news on television, print and online; blogs and online forums between January and September, nearly a fourth — or 3.1 million mentions — have most likely been misinformation, Zignal Labs said.

That was 160 percent more than the 1.2 million mentions of misinformation on Bill and Hillary Clinton and their Clinton Foundation, the next biggest category, Zignal said. Other misinformation categories included George Soros, the billionaire investor and Democratic donor (915,300 mentions); misinformation about vaccines (628,700 mentions); and Kamala Harris “birtherism” claims (69,200 mentions).

The misleading information about voting by mail was not uniform. It broke down into six main categories, according to the analysis. In the month of September, they included:

  • mentions of absentee voting or ballots, such as the false idea that it will be an unreliable way to vote: 410,918 mentions
  • mentions of voter fraud, such as mentions of misleading stories about criminal conduct involving mail-in ballots: 345,040 mentions
  • mentions of voter IDs, such as the baseless idea that in states with strict voter ID laws, mail-in ballots have been dumped out: 31,021 mentions
  • mentions of foreign interference, such as inaccurately asserting that “foreign powers” are counterfeiting millions of votes: 11,857 mentions
  • mentions of ballot “harvesting,” a loaded political term used by President Trump for ballot collection, a process that is legal in 26 states where someone other than a family member can drop off your absentee ballot for you: 10,562 mentions
  • mentions of a “rigged election”: 10,140 mentions

Facebook, YouTube and Twitter have made combating false information about voting a priority, including highlighting accurate information on how to vote and how to register to vote. But the platforms have struggled to apply their election misinformation policies evenly, and many of the false posts are not removed unless the messages are explicit about causing imminent harm in the voting process."

 

D

 

 


10/01/20 09:58 AM #8169    

 

John Jackson

Jim,  there is an ingenious (and extraordinarily simple) protocol universally used to keep people from sending in multiple ballots.  Once a ballot is received and the signature verified, the fact that the person in question has voted is recorded.  If another ballot is received with the same name, it’s obvious that the person has already voted.  How else do you keep people from mailing in ballots and then showing up to vote again in person on election day?  It’s not exactly rocket science.

And if voting fraud is so widespread, why are we only hearing about it this election?  Hasn’t it been going on for decades?  Why didn’t Trump talk about it in his 2016 campaign?  It only started to become an issue after he lost the popular vote by 3 million votes. 

Could it be that Trump is seriously behind in the polls (have you seen the Fox News polls lately?) and he wants to cast doubt on the integrity of our elections?  Could this be why he has implied  he will not step down willingly because any election he loses has to have been fraudulent?

This whole voter fraud thing is a key component of the Russian disinformation campaign targeted at social media and far-right websites.  While Putin would love to see Trump re-elected, his primary goal is to destroy Americans’ faith in their democratic institutions.  The  Russians want democracy to die in the U.S. so we become just like them.  And circulating this Trumped-up voter fraud stuff plays right into their hands.


10/01/20 10:34 AM #8170    

 

Michael McLeod

Actually, John, this is nothing new. It's been in the republican playbook for years.

From the Times five-month investigation. Let's hope history does not repeat.

 

On an October morning four years ago, eight young staff members at the Indiana Voter Registration Project in Indianapolis were planning their final steps before a closely contested presidential election. In recent weeks they had registered 45,000 new voters, most of whom were Black and Latino, and they were on track to enlist 10,000 more before Election Day. Their work had gone smoothly for the most part, but several canvassers had submitted applications with names that appeared to have been made up or drawn from the phone book, most likely to create the appearance that they were doing more work than they had actually done. That was illegal — submitting a false registration is a felony under Indiana law — and also frustrating. A made-up name was not going to help anyone vote. The staff members stopped using the suspect canvassers, but they couldn’t simply trash the faulty registrations: State law required them to file every application they collected, even if they had false names or serious mistakes. So they carefully identified all the applications with potentially false names, along with several hundred more with incorrect addresses or other simple errors, so that local election clerks would know they might present a problem.

Despite their efforts at transparency, though, Indiana’s secretary of state, Connie Lawson, used these faulty registrations as evidence of wrongdoing. She warned all the state’s county elections clerks that a group of “nefarious actors” who were going “by the name of the Indiana Voter Registration Project” had “forged voter registrations.” It was a gross exaggeration, but the project hired a lawyer to visit local election board offices and assure registrars that they were following the proper procedures. Craig Varoga, a longtime Democratic operative who runs Patriot Majority USA, which funded the Indiana project, told reporters that the fraud claims were false. Lawson was a close ally of Mike Pence, the state’s former governor who was then Donald Trump’s running mate. “We believe she is using government resources,” Varoga said, “to discredit and impugn the entire process.”

But the staff members did not expect anything like what came that October morning. Around 10:45, five unmarked state police cars and a mobile cybercrimes unit quietly approached their building. A staff member heard a knock on the back door. Within minutes, troopers were rounding up the staff members inside the office, announcing that they had a warrant to search all their computers, cellphones and records. When one staff member, a young Black man, refused to give up his phone, the troopers handcuffed him — for “acting like a hoodlum,” he later said in a sworn affidavit. Within a couple of hours, the police were heading out the door with computers and phones as a television news crew captured the scene.

 

Pence seized on the investigation in interviews. “Voter fraud, Dana, is real,” he told the CNN correspondent Dana Bash. “We’re dealing with it in the state of Indiana right now. We have literally thousands of instances of fraudulent voter registration.” This claim was a misrepresentation, but it was of a piece with similar claims circulating around the country. The Pennsylvania State Police raided a Democratic firm that it said was suspected of producing fraudulent registrations. Conservative activists released a report titled “Alien Invasion in Virginia,” claiming that more than a thousand “noncitizens” there were poised to vote illegally. A video from Project Veritas’s right-wing video ambush artist James O’Keefe III caught a Democratic operative seemingly discussing a hypothetical “huge, massive voter-fraud scheme” in Wisconsin, as Sean Hannity described it. Some of the claims were simply nonsensical. Roger Stone, Trump’s longtime adviser, tweeted a fictitious document that purported to reveal a Democratic plan to attack American voters with mind-controlling “pulsed ELF electromagnetic emissions” and impose martial law, adding only, “If this is real: OMG!!!”

 

None of these stories held up under examination: The Pennsylvania authorities never followed the raid with a case; there were no official findings of illegal voting by noncitizens in Virginia; a Wisconsin attorney general’s investigation failed to uncover a “massive voter-fraud scheme.” In Indiana, a judge dismissed charges against a manager at the Indiana Voter Registration Project, and prosecutors dropped the cases against nine of its former canvassers after they agreed to pay fines and confirm as true the charges against them. Two of the former canvassers did plead guilty to making false statements on government forms and received sentences of community service and probation.

But all those headlines about voter fraud — amplified daily on Facebook and Twitter — served a purpose: They laid the groundwork for a legal challenge. The Trump campaign had a team of election lawyers standing by to dispute election results throughout the country, and the Republican National Lawyers Association had readied a self-described “Navy SEAL-type” operation to fight similar cases. In the event of a Republican loss, they would need a story, and fraud was it. The truth appeared to be a secondary concern at best.

Victory did little to change their stance. Shortly after his inauguration, President Trump told a bipartisan group of senators that his narrow loss in New Hampshire was due to voter fraud. Thousands of out-of-state voters apparently voted illegally, he said, after they were bused in to New Hampshire from Massachusetts. After Trump’s rant was leaked to reporters, the ABC anchor George Stephanopoulos asked the senior presidential adviser Stephen Miller if he really believed that to be the case. The practice of busing in illegal, out-of-state voters was “widely known” in New Hampshire, he said. But he declined to provide evidence, adding that “voter fraud is something we’re going to be looking at very seriously.”

 

As the 2020 presidential election nears, it is becoming clear that the Trump administration and the Republican Party are not just looking at but heavily investing in the largely nonexistent problem of voter fraud. A New York Times Magazine investigation, based on a review of thousands of pages of court records and interviews with more than 100 key players — lawyers, activists and current and former government officials — found an extensive effort to gain partisan advantage by aggressively promoting the false claim that voter fraud is a pervasive problem. The effort takes its most prominent form in the president’s own public statements, which relentlessly promote the false notion that voter fraud is rampant.

 

This story did not originate with Trump. It has its roots in Reconstruction-era efforts to suppress the votes of newly freed slaves and came roaring back to life after the passage of the Voting Rights Act. But it is reaching an apex now, as a president who lost the popular vote in 2016 and is currently trailing in the polls harnesses the reality-warping powers of social media and the resources of at least four federal agencies to undermine faith in an election he could very well lose.

Voter fraud is an adaptable fiction, and the president has tailored it to the moment. Even as the coronavirus pandemic poses a grave obstacle to his re-election, the crisis is providing him an opportunity to do what no other president has done before him: use the full force of the federal government to attack the democratic process, suppress the votes of American citizens and spread grievance and suspicion among his followers. Recently, perhaps predictably, the president has begun to suggest that because of his professed distrust in the election process, he will not agree to a peaceful transition of power.

It is remarkable, but not at all accidental, that a narrative built from minor incidents, gross exaggeration and outright fabrication is now at the center of the effort to re-elect the president. As we approach an election in which the threat of voter fraud is being used as a justification for unprecedented legal and political interventions in our democratic process, it is important to understand what this claim actually represents: It is nothing short of a decades-long disinformation campaign — sloppy, cynical and brazen, but often quite effective — carried out by a consistent cast of characters with a consistent story line. Even the Indiana Voter Registration Project remains in play. “In my own state of Indiana in 2012,” Pence said on Fox News in July, “literally, there was a group of people that were prosecuted for falsifying ballots.” He had the year wrong and the facts wrong. But the Indiana case was nevertheless proof, he said, that “the reality of voter fraud is undeniable.”

The modern era of voter-fraud claims began on a November morning in 2000, inside a drab office building in downtown Miami — home of the Miami-Dade County election supervisor. Al Gore was contesting the results of the Florida presidential vote count, which showed a very small margin in favor of George W. Bush. Up against a court-imposed deadline, the Miami-Dade canvassing board voted to recount 10,750 ballots that had been rejected by its electronic machines, letting the 643,250 others stand, a decision that, at the time, seemed as though it could tip the vote to Gore.

With a Republican protest growing inside and around the building, the election board had moved its counting to a room on the 19th floor, away from the crowd. Stone, who helped guide Trump’s first, short-lived bid for the presidency during the 2000 primaries, has proudly promoted himself as an organizer of the demonstration, which involved several young white male rising stars of the conservative-operative ranks. The group stormed the counting room in a crashing human wave of clenched fists, pleated khakis and button-down shirt collars. Banging on doors and walls, they chanted, “Stop the fraud!”

The effort was obviously in bad faith — reporters called it the Blue Blazer Riot, the Bourgeois Riot and the Brooks Brothers Riot — but the board was sufficiently intimidated. It suspended the count less than a quarter of the way through, when it had shown a net gain of nearly 160 votes for Gore. It would never resume. If the rest of the ballots had broken the same way, Gore would have gained more votes than Bush’s final winning margin in Florida of 537. The success of the Brooks Brothers Riot confirmed that a fraud claim — even an unconvincing one — could help determine a chaotic, contested election.

 


10/01/20 11:41 AM #8171    

Timothy Lavelle

Just thinking...The benefit of this forum to me is special to me. Since the reunion and with this method I have been able to hear from people privately that otherwise I would have lived out my life without hearing from again.

 To all of you, the answer is still "no". Stop asking.

Still thinking...Lastly, you don't think a political season could be more insane...I offer you a mini view. If the much fantasized Independent Party could have put a knowledgeable candidate up, the political scene would be more chaotic than anything we've seen. Just imagine...

We're good. We'll get through this.

 

 


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