Message Forum

Welcome to the Watterson High School Message Forum.

The message forum is an ongoing dialogue between classmates. There are no items, topics, subtopics, etc.

Forums work when people participate - so don't be bashful! Click the "Post Message" button to add your entry to the forum.


 
go to bottom 
  Post Message
  
    Prior Page
 Page  
Next Page      

01/31/23 08:19 AM #12122    

Joseph Gentilini

Hi Mary Margaret,

 

You have not made me uncomfortable regarding this topic of SSA.  In fact, you have made me to reflect again my thoughts on this issue.  When I saw the first part of the video, I saw immediately it was about SSA, which I knew how they viewed it already, and so I did not listen to the entire video contents. 

In fairness, I will watch the entire thing so that I can respond to your thoughts.  the complimentary issue about male and female and procreation has been brought up to me before (see you are not the first - ha), and I will respond after I watch the video later.

I am having pictures hung in my condo today and I am taking my monthly journal entries to my spiritual companion - a nun 90 years old in a nursing home.  She has been with me on my journey for about 5 decades and knows me in-and-out.  She knows my soul and gives me good guidance.  So...later.  Thanks.  joe


01/31/23 09:42 AM #12123    

 

Michael McLeod

If you wind up going to hell we can hang out together Joe. I know that's not much consolation.


02/01/23 01:42 AM #12124    

 

David Mitchell

Wouldn't it be nice if all the answers to life's questions were simple?

Growing up, I had a favorite uncle who lived in Santa Monica, California (In Pacific Palisades, right across the street from actor Dom Delouise, a very foul-mouthed, inhospitable neighbor). My crazy, funny, eccentric Uncle Herb had a partner, "Uncle" Warren who often came along on visits to Columbus. Warren was the "dentist to the rich and famous" in Santa Monica. My uncle Herb graduated medical school in California, but do to (very) poor eye sight, ended up selling paint in the lobby of the downtown L.A. May Company Department store - for 51 years!

We loved them both. My mother didn't explain their relationship to me until I was 14. Kinda shocked me at the time but I still loved him. 

I admit to having feelings on both sides of this issue - with several gay good friends in life. Then, in recent years, it came to be in my own immediate family. That came as a shock too. A real hard shock!  But this is one of my favorite people in the whole world and I love her unconditionally. We can discuss, agree, disagree, and stil love one another. I was given the assignmrnt to be her father - not her judge.

When I read (most of) Joe's book, I heard some of the same arguments come out - struggles with painful questions - family questions - church questions, etc. Yet, his is a life awash in Faith, Love, and Loyalty. Never mind the very accomplished professional carreer Joe has had in the field of mental health service, his life is his own and his love of God stands out.

And may I add, a genuinely nice and interesting guy.

We could go back and forth on this Forum, but when my life is perfect, I will be sure to cast that first stone. (note: I am saving most of my stones for those clowns in D.C.) 


02/01/23 10:08 AM #12125    

 

Michael McLeod

I'm curious about something: is anybody else still working? I still write for a couple of local magazines and teach a writing class at a small liberal arts college down here in winter park, a pretty suburb of Orlando. And I worry about cognitive decline. I do get rattled more than I used to, but somehow I can still pull together a lecture and a story. Just wondering how long I can keep it up. Slowing down gradually seems the obvious strategy. Sure do love the time at my pool and in the garden. Won't ever give up musing about the mysteries of life and the differences and similarities between us. That's the big us, meaning people and cultures in general. I am not wealthy but feel rich. I went to a concert a few days ago  featuring Yuja Wang, the fabulous pianist. She played all four Rachmaninoff concertos. Brought me to tears. I know zip about classical music but what I do know is that it's stupid for me to worry about it and I should stop trying to figure it out and just let it wash over me. Same same about life. so yeah. Lucky indeed. Had a hell of a lot of heartbreak, a good portion of it brought on by my own crazy self, which makes me even more grateful for my lot in life It's heen just that, a lot!


02/01/23 11:00 AM #12126    

 

Mary Margaret Clark (Schultheis)

Mike, to answer your question about whether any of us are still working, I would perhaps rephrase the question to include all who are currently involved in any volunteer organization.which still requires us to use our physical, mental and emotional facutlies to be of fruitful service.  For myself, I am grateful to have been employed on a partime basis for the past eleven years by two wonderful dental surgeons whose practice has allowed me to transition from a clinical position to an at home position where I am still receiving a paycheck for being in charge of the dental practice FB posts. The posts are rarely dental oriented as we try to employ a wide variety of interests to attract persons to the FB page. Just recently we recognized National Holocaust Memorial Day with a link to information found at the Holocaust archives. I am currently at work on a FB post about Groundhog Day! smiley

  


02/01/23 04:13 PM #12127    

Joseph Gentilini

Mary Margaret asked me if I had listened to the entire video about same-sex attractions which was a talk a priest gave that I assume was at a COURAGE conference.  She specifically about the sexual act between males and females for the pupose of procreation and the unitive factor and the complimentary aspect between male and female. 

Today I listened to the almost 1 hour video and it will take me some time to reflect on her question.  Unfortunately, when I moved to this condo last fall, I donated 400 books on gays and lesbians from religious and secular prespectives to the library.

I have formulated some thoughts, but an answer needs some more reflection and thought.  So...I will put down my thoughts when they have come together better.

Tiull next time. Joe


02/01/23 04:22 PM #12128    

Joseph Gentilini

Thanks for your thoughts and words, David!  It is hard for me to imagine that families don't have at least one gay member in their immediate or larger family. Joe


02/01/23 04:30 PM #12129    

Joseph Gentilini

Michael asked if any of us are still working.  I retired early from my job first as a vocational counselor with persons with severe disabilities and then later as a rehabilitation program specialist in helping to develop the policies of the agencies in regard to this population.  After 32 years in this profession, it was time for me to leave it.  I did nothing for several years, but workers for the State of Ohio do not pay into Social Security and so I wouldnot be eligible for Medicare.  Hence I went back to work helping out in a store that made chocolate fudge and various different types of candies. Less stress.  I had a regular schedule and worked about 10 or more hours a week.  Now, I do this maybe a few hours a week at most and help out whatever my boss wants me to do. Working there I met my social security requirement of working 40 quarters in a job under social social security.  I met that requirement but stayed working as I meet lots of different people from all over the world and it got me out of the house.  I do not make enough money to receive any social security check but I became eligible for Medicare (thank God!).  Joe


02/01/23 05:07 PM #12130    

 

Mary Margaret Clark (Schultheis)

Joe, I can clrify for you that Fr. Schmitz's presentation was at a "FOCUS Catholic" conference. FOCUS is a Catholic collegiate outreach whose mission is to share the hope and joy of the gospel with college and university students. There were many speakers at this conference and the students who attended Fr. Schmitz's talk were there because they chose to learn something about the Church teaching on SSA. I believe that anyone who is seeking out God's plan for them, will find the talk gentle, compassionate, and filled with hope and truth.


02/01/23 05:13 PM #12131    

 

Michael McLeod

yep thanks mm that broadens my job-description description and hopefully will open up the chat for more folks.

I just had a theory that we work longer than our folks did, and that's a good thing, I think.


02/02/23 10:52 AM #12132    

Joseph Gentilini

Hi Mary Margaret, still formulating my thoughts on the talk by Father on SSA, but thanks for clarifying where the talk was given.  He presented the topic well, although I still disagree with his conclusions.  For some I am sure it sounded hopeful at first.  I imagine that people who would come into his presentation had questions about this, either for themselves or a loved one.  In the long run, for me I did not find it hopeful at all.  While saying that this is what the church teaches on the subject, I did not find his rationale consistent - I found holes in his logic.  Glad I listened to the entire video, however, although I have heard these same 'arguments' before.  More coming - although my thoughts are some that others would not accept.  joe


02/02/23 12:03 PM #12133    

 

Deborah Alexander (Rogers)

Mike, 

I am still working and enjoying it after 32 years as the manager of a local law firm.  This job came to me after 12 years working as an elementary school teacher, mostly kindergarten and primary grades.  I always say, 25 lawyers, 25 kindergarteners...about the same thing!  Just as I was considering when to retire, Covid came along and we all began working from home.  I love it, and can work part time with much flexibility, so I am continuing working until I have the urge to retire.  Right now, it's too easy to work from home, and it keeps me sharp!  The partners are dreading the day I do retire so are extremely good to me.  I have unlimited paid vacation too, so it's the perfect situation for someone our age.


02/02/23 07:44 PM #12134    

 

Michael Boulware

I still work part time cutting fairways at Rolling Meadows Golf Club in Marysville,  when the grass is growing. We have a great crew that works hard , then we play golf on our days off. Sometimes classmates Kevin Ryan and Brian McNamara join us. Alan Morse used to join us as well.


02/03/23 12:15 PM #12135    

 

Michael McLeod

Thanks so much to everyone who has answered my question about continuing to pitch in one way or another and continue working - I should have said contributing, so thanks again mm for opening it up to volunteering - in these, our twilight years. I had suspected that we differ in that respect from our parents. not that they were slackers by any means. My dad was the auditor at osu and worked at the university golf course when he retired, but I bet he did not think of it as working! lol deb about the lawyers.


02/04/23 12:21 PM #12136    

 

Mark Schweickart

Mike -- I guess you can put me in the slacker column. I was a little slow to fully retire, working instead on a part-time basis from age 69 to 72. But then, when the pandemic shutdown happened in March of 2020, I hung up my work clothes for good. I can't say that it hasn't been a bit boring, but working wasn't much fun either. 


02/04/23 03:35 PM #12137    

 

John Maxwell

Mike,
I am working doing presentations at the Henry Ford. The place where retirees go to walk themselves to death. At the end of the day the trip back to the time clock is fondly called the zombie walk. The village is closed now but will reopen in March. I must say I have really enjoyed making brass candlesticks on the lathe at Armington and Symms machine shop. Working there is like living in a clock. The drive line is constantly running and the sound of the belt staples slapping the pully creating a smooth calming rhythm. Overall the ambient noise is low. The sounds are the whirring of a ten horse electric motor and the syncopated drive belts.

02/04/23 04:07 PM #12138    

Joseph Gentilini

I have been thinking about how to respond to Mary Margaret and her serious and thoughtful questions about same-sex relationships and the complimentary natures of males and females and how the Catholic Church views the subject.  She asked me to view a talk by a Father Schmitz at a conference on the subject of 'same-sex attraction.'  I previously discussed on why I think this topic is misnamed.  By saying it is only an attraction, then the Church ignores that homosexuality is more than an attraction to the same sex; it is an orientation that involves person's personality and is inherent to that person's very being.

I may not have fully answered her question, but this is my attempt.  

While the Scriptures are inspired by God, they are still written by men to explain a reality – to explain how God interacts with humanity, why there issuffering and sickness in the world, how sin entered humanity, and even to explain how the earth came into being.

But Scripture passages need to be read with critical analysis – what was the intent of the story, in what context were they written down, what was happening in the world at that time, how did people understand it, and what was the original meaning of their words that they used. 

In the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation of the Second Vatican Council dealing with the interpretation of sacred Scripture (No. 12) it says, “Since God speaks in sacred Scripture through men in a human fashion, the interpreter of sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.”  So, it is not valid to just take a certain text of Scripture and automatically assign a specific meaning without applying it to the contemporary circumstances of life.  This takes the text out of context.  This warning is applicable for the Old Testament as well as the New Testament.

According to scriptural scholars, the second account of creation in Genesis is older than the first account.  In this account procreation is not necessarily the goal of the different sexes as male and female, but companionship and a cure of loneliness.  Father Schmitz mentioned that everyone gets lonely at times, including married people or people who never had the opportunity to marry.  I agree – we all get lonely at times.  However, to insist that gay persons who have the opportunity to live with a beloved companion are forbidden to get married or to form a loving relationship just because they are homosexual seems to me to be inhuman and acting against love.  God is LOVE in his very nature and those who love are in God.

God created humanity male and female, but is it all that simple?  Today we recognize that there are other combinations of hormones, genes, chromosomes, gonads, and genitals that don’t neatly fit in the differences as only male and female.  There are persons who consider themselves as non-binary, or as intersex, or as transgendered.  What is considered masculine or feminine behavior today is a cultural phenomenon and differs between cultures.  Even the concept of marriage has changed through the centuries.

In the case of same sex relationships, some have interpreted the Scriptures as meaning that all same sex relationships are immoral.  They cite that Christian marriage is a symbol of Christ’s love with his bride, the church.  For them, this ultimately refers to gender complementarity and it is only interpreted through those who are biologically male and female. I believe this model is too limiting in today’s understanding of human sexuality  Homosexuality is a variation of human sexuality. 

The objective reality of our bodies – male and female – is such that they physically ‘fit’ together and, according to the Church, they should  come together only for the purpose of procreation and the unitive joining of the two persons.  But today we recognize that in an ideal world, for heterosexuals, the psycho-sexual and emotional attraction to the other is there.  Even in homosexual sexual unions, parts still fit and there is a psycho-sexual and emotional attraction to the other.

I believe Father Schmitz was incorrect in his presentation  when he said that Scripture is very clear when it deals with homosexual acts, beginning in Leviticus and on into the Acts, Romans, etc.  The Church, I believe, wants to make this topic black and white and simple by preaching this sweeping condemnation.  Scripture scholars for years have researched these, what I would call the ‘clobber’ passages dealing with homosexual behavior, and many have come up with a different viewpoint.  There is no longer a clear and definitive view on this even between Catholic scripture scholars.

It is very unlikely that the biblical writers in the Old Testament and the New Testament recognized or thought about a person having a sexual orientation; they saw only behavior.  The term homosexual didn’t even appear until the late 19th century.  In a previous discussion, I explained how a sexual orientation differs from just having a sexual attraction.

I will give just two examples to counter his premise.  For example, Leviticus is a chapter on all the rules that the Jewish people had to follow.  They needed to increase their population in order to defend themselves against their enemies, hence sex was for procreation.  They believed they were the chosen people of the Covenant and needed to be different than their neighbors - pure and holy.  In Leviticus 6, it says that a man should not lay down with a man as he would with a woman.  Women in that time were considered property without equal rights with men.  To lay with a man as with a woman was considered to be act of domination and a humiliation.  This chapter also condemns the wearing of mixed fabrics, having intercourse with a woman in her menstrual period (which made her unclean), the eating of shellfish, and many other rules that today people never observe. 

Scripture Scholars now believe that the sin of Sodom was the sin of inhospitality, not homosexual behavior.  In another Old Testament passage (Ezekiel 16: 49-50, it reads, “Behold, this was the sin of your sister Sodom: she and her sisters lived in pride, plenty, and thoughtless ease; they supported not the poor and needy; they grew haughty, and committed abomination before me.”  This certainly does not sound like a sin of homosexuality.  Each time in the Gospels where Jesus mentions Sodom, it refers to this sin, not homosexuality.  

Concerning Romans in the New Testament, Father John McNeill, in his book The Church and the Homosexual (page 56), states, “…the Pauline epistles do not explicitly treat of the problem of homosexual activity between persons who share the homosexual condition, and as such cannot be read as explicitly condemning such behavior.”  There was not even a concept of a homosexual orientation.  Most likely, Paul saw them as heterosexuals who abandon the natural intercourse with women’.  For me, having been gay all my life, having intercourse with a woman would be against my own nature and wrong. 

In addition, Paul probably never met true homosexuals who were in an equal and loving relationship. Scripture scholars now think Paul was referring to temple male prostitutes, promiscuous behavior, man-boy sex, rape, etc. Unfortunately, I no longer have my books that dealt with each of the ‘clobber’ Scriptural passages.

Furthermore, Jesus never said one word about homosexual behavior.  Homosexual activity certainly occurred in his time, and it certainly would have been mentioned in the Gospels if Jesus said anything about it.

Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount talked about good trees bearing good fruit and bad trees bearing bad fruit.  In looking at those in same-sex relationship of love and devotion, who can say they are not producing good fruit.  Their very lives show their love for each other, and love is the new commandment given by Christ that supersedes the Jewish Laws.  In my opinion, this is the criteria in looking at same-sex relationships.  Is there love involved?  Is it self-giving?  Is it mutual?  This to me seems the differences we should be looking at, not the biological differences between men and women.  Research also shows that those who are gay, etc., and ‘come out’ are healthier psychologically and I would add spiritually.  What is not good psychologically cannot be good spiritually.

Years ago, the Church taught that the primary purpose for sexuality was procreation.  In fact, in the Middle Ages, it was considered a venial sin if one took pleasure in sexual acts.  Years later, it was recognized that the secondary purpose of sex was the unitive joining of the couple.  Under Pope Pius XII, they were given equal importance, and this has been the same thought even today.  Hence, the church says that heterosexual sexual acts serve its purpose and intent.

This is why the Church says that every sexual act must be open to the transmission of life (Humanae Vitae by Pope Paul VI - July 1968), that any sexual act between married couples outside the penis-vagina union is immoral.  Hence, even between heterosexual couples, oral sex to orgasm, and mutual masturbation are considered immoral.  And of course, homosexual unions would automatically be immoral.

However, there are Catholic heterosexual couples who have sex but do not have the intent of procreation; in fact, their intent is not to have children.  Hence the rhythm method was allowed.  Of course, we all know that this method was not full proof.  The Church now has introduced a ‘natural family planning’ method as a more accurate way of avoiding pregnancy.  The issue is still the same: the intent is not to have children. 

Sin is in the intent.  If the two persons having sex but intending not to procreate, then logically they are only having sex for the purpose of pleasure and the unitive factor.  The sexual act is no longer for procreation and therefore falls short of the purpose of the sexual act which the Church teaches is for procreation and the unitive factor.  

The Church allows older couples to get married even if they are past the age of becoming parents and it allows a couple who are sterile to get married.  In these cases, their sexual acts can only serve the unitive purpose, not the complete purpose which the church insists on – procreation AND the unitive factor.  Logically, to my way of thinking, maybe these persons therefore should not be having sex relations because part of the purpose of the sexual act is missing part of the reason for sex.  Therefore, it only serves the unitive purpose of the sexual act and not the other.

Father Schmitz encouraged persons with same-sex attraction not to identify as gay or lesbians because this assumes they are engaging in the sexual act as if that is the only important thing about gays and lesbians.  The priest said the ‘correct’ position would be to say they are a person first and this person has same-sex attraction.  Of course, I am a person first, but I also identify as gay, and it certainly means more than having sex.  Even if I was celibate, I would still identify myself as gay.

I will end my comments with a few entries from my book.

September 29, 1995

I am who I am before you, my God, and in you I do place my trust.

June 13, 2003

Thank you, God, for the gift of Leo in my life.  How did you know I needed him so much? Well, I guess I can answer that one – it is so obvious that I was a mess before him.

May 15, 2010

As I sat in prayer, I often just told God that I wanted him for all eternity.  I also want Leo for all eternity, and there is a connection.  We are a threesome.  I do not feel a need to disconnect my life with Leo from my life with God.

 


02/05/23 09:19 AM #12139    

 

Michael McLeod

Again,I appreciate all the responses to my question about being un-retired. I Kinda like the irony of one of us being on a way-back assembly line. Sounds pretty trippy Jack. 

And I like the concept, Joe, that scripture is flexible and open to interpretation, perhaps more so than we tend to think.


02/05/23 09:41 AM #12140    

 

Michael McLeod

And as far as this thing about everybody getting their shorts in a bunch over a big balloon I like the theory pitched by a British analyst that the Chinese government did it just to mess with our minds and as a mute protest over our tendency to align with Taiwan as being independent.  They have a different way of thinking and communicating that goes over our heads. In this case literally as well as figuratively


02/05/23 12:13 PM #12141    

 

David Barbour

Thanks, Joe, I needed that.
My second cry this week. The first was " the perks of being a Wallflower. Just cried my eyes out over that. Pretty emotional week.
We are blessed to have you, Joe.
Thank you.

02/05/23 12:48 PM #12142    

 

Joseph D. McCarthy

Just read the obituary in Saturdays The Wall Street Journal, one you would like Mike, about a man who ran a company that all of us knew as children, and some may still.  Ira Braham (knows as Bob) Born. He was 98.

While living and working in the Lehigh Valley (Bethlehem), PA I passed his factory, JUST BORN, at least twice a day.  I allways said I would have to take the time to take a tour, but never got around to doing so.

Bob Born skipped two grades, graduating high school at 16.  He attended Lehigh University, gaduating in 2 1/2 years.  Wanted to go to Medical  school but ended up eventually at the family business, Just Born, where he became President upon the daeth of his father.  At one point his father purchased Rodda Candy Co.  With Bob's help they turned it into the biggest part of the company.

On average, besides the other products the company produces, they produce about 5.5 Million "PEEPS" a day.

 


02/05/23 02:00 PM #12143    

 

Michael McLeod

Love how you wrote that Joe. I especially liked the surprise ending. I'll just compliment you for it without going into detail about it. Call it professional courtesy  -- as a writer I don't want to steal your thunder or ruin the ending for anyone else. But if there is one thing I can't resist it's alliteration. So I'll just say the guy was a real people pleaser and leave it at that. 


02/05/23 05:32 PM #12144    

 

James Hamilton, M. D.

Mike,

I believe you meant to address Joe McC, not me, in your post #12143.

Personally, with a science and not an English or Journalism background, I try to avoid using alliteration as I see it basically as a blatantly bizarre, babbling, boring and braggadocios way to use the beauty and brilliance of our English language. 😱😀

Jim 

 


02/06/23 12:12 AM #12145    

 

Michael McLeod

Jim, yep, I did have "Jim" instead of Joe on the post above.  Thanks for the correction. At first I was flustered but then felt fortunate that a fastidious physician found the flub, which I was fast to fix for fear of offending you as a friend who follows this forum faithfully. 


02/06/23 12:20 AM #12146    

 

David Mitchell

Mike,

I got blocked from the Forum for a few days (no idea why) and they helped me find my way back on tonight.

I wanted to respond to yor "still working" question.

I am still working about three quarter time, driving for a private car service (Camelot Limo in here Bluffton). It gets me out of the house. It's acctually sort of fun (excpet that I get a lot of late ones and get home at 2:00 am or later. It's also a welcome bit of extra income. And the owner and other drivers are all nice guys - almost like a small fraternity.

I get to meet and converse with some interesting people and many of our riders are regulars who repeat often enough that they sort of become friends. Most of our pickups are about an hour long going from Savannah airport to Hilton Head - or vice versa. I get people from Ohio a lot including a story I think I shared with a van load full of relatives of Loraine Heitchue going to and from a condo to dinner on the island several nights in a row. In that one week four of my five pickups were Columbus people, including a youg lady from that little Catholic high school on Cooke Road. 

I also spend a few days a month working on the "Stephen Ministry" team at my church. Very rewarding, but also at times, stressful.

My third job is trying to keep up with all the confusing dates for Doctor appointments. Yikes!  If someone had told me getting old was this difficult (complicated) I would have gone through this damned aging thing when I was younger.

 

 


go to top 
  Post Message
  
    Prior Page
 Page  
Next Page