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10/31/20 01:48 AM #8397    

 

Frank Ganley

Dave to continue our discussion of the example of no more challenges to women's right to vote, means that what was written into law has maintained itself without challenges to the law or its content and therefore the Supreme Court see no reason to revisit it at a later date. It is accepted as law and what would you change. That is what challenges meN in this instance. For the life of me I can find nothing that I said as dismissive of women's rights. 


10/31/20 10:12 AM #8398    

 

Michael McLeod

From the pen of  one of the great ones, Thomas Friedman:

There is no escaping it: America is on the ballot on Tuesday — the stability and quality of our governing institutions, our alliances, how we treat one another, our basic commitment to scientific principles and the minimum decency that we expect from our leaders. The whole ball of wax is on the ballot.

The good news is that we’ve survived four years of Donald Trump’s abusive presidency with most of our core values still intact. To be sure, the damage has been profound, but, I’d argue, the cancer has not yet metastasized into the bones and lymph nodes of our nation. The harm is still reversible.

The bad news is that if we have to endure four more years of Donald Trump, with him unrestrained by the need to be re-elected, our country will not be the America we grew up with, whose values, norms and institutions we had come to take for granted.

 

Four more years of a president without shame, backed by a party without spine, amplified by a TV network without integrity, and the cancer will be in the bones of every institution that has made America America.

, who will we be? We can explain away, and the world can explain away, taking a one-time flier on a fast-talking, huckster-populist like Trump. It’s happened to many countries in history. But if we re-elect him, knowing what a norm-destroying, divisive, corrupt liar he is, then the world will not treat the last four years as an aberration. It will treat them as an affirmation that we’ve changed.

The world will not just look at America differently, but at Americans differently. And with good reason.

Re-electing Trump would mean that a significant number of Americans don’t cherish the norms that give our Constitution meaning, don’t appreciate the need for an independent, professional Civil Service, don’t respect scientists, don’t hunger for national unity, don’t care if a president tells 20,000 lies — in short, don’t care about what has actually made America great and different from any other great power in history.

If that happens, what America has lost these past four years will become permanent.

And the effects will be felt all over the world. Foreigners love to make fun of America, of our naïveté, or our silly notion that every problem has a solution and that the future can bury the past — that the past doesn’t always have to bury the future. But deep down, they often envy Americans’ optimism.

 

If America goes dark, if the message broadcast by the Statue of Liberty shifts from “give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free” to “get the hell off my lawn”; if America becomes just as cynically transactional in all its foreign dealings as Russia and China; if foreigners stop believing that there is somewhere over the rainbow where truth is still held sacred in news reporting and where justice is the norm in most of the courts, then the whole world will get darker. Those who have looked to us for inspiration will have no widely respected reference point against which to critique their own governments.

Authoritarian leaders all over the world — in Turkey, China, Russia, Poland, Hungary, the Philippines, Saudi Arabia, Brazil and elsewhere — already smell this. They have been emboldened by the Trump years. They know they’re freer to assassinate, poison, jail, torture and censor whomever they want, without reproach from America, as long as they flatter Trump or buy our arms.

I asked Nader Mousavizadeh, a former senior U.N. official who now runs the London-based consultancy Macro Advisory Partners, what he thought was at stake in this election. He said: “It’s the sense that ever since F.D.R., despite all kinds of failures and flaws, America was a country that wanted a better future — not just for itself but for other people.”

While that may seem like a banality, he added, “it is actually unique in history. No other great power in history has behaved that way. And it provided America with an intangible asset of immense value: the benefit of the doubt. People across the world were willing to give America a second, third and fourth chance because they believed that, unlike any other great power that had come to impact their lives, our purpose was different.”

Of course, America has at times behaved in cruel, nakedly self-interested, reckless and harmful ways toward other nations and peoples. Vietnam was real. Anti-democratic coups in Iran and Chile were real. Abu Ghraib was real. Separating children from their parents at our southern border was real.

But they remain exceptions, not our modus operandi, which is precisely why people all over the world, not to mention Americans, are so enraged by them — while shrugging off Russia’s or China’s abuses.

It’s because they know, added Mousavizadeh, that historically “America’s intent, if not always its practice, has been to exhort not extort other nations; to export not exploit; to collaborate not dominate; and to strengthen a global system of rules and norms, not overturn it in order to focus exclusively on its own enrichment.

“Four more years of Trump’s America, and no one will have cause to give us the benefit of any doubt. The disillusionment will be shattering to our standing and influence — and only when we are received around the world as Russians or Chinese will we know what we have lost, for good.”

Was everything Trump did wrong or unnecessary? No. He provided a valuable corrective to U.S.-China trade relations. A useful counterpunch to Iranian excesses in the Middle East. And he sent the needed message, albeit crudely, that if you want to come into this country, you can’t just walk in, you have to at least ring the doorbell.

But these initiatives were nowhere near as impactful as Trump pretends they are, precisely because he did them alone — without allies abroad or bipartisan support at home. We could have had a much bigger and sustainable impact on China and Iran if we had acted with our allies; we could have had a grand bargain on immigration if Trump had been willing to move to the center. But he wouldn’t.

I fear that this inability of Americans to do big, hard things together anymore — which predated Trump and the pandemic, but was exacerbated by them both — has led to another loss. It’s a loss of confidence in democratic systems generally, and versus China’s autocratic system in particular.

Over the last pandemic year, the legendary investor Ray Dalio wrote in The Financial Times last week, China’s “economy grew at almost 5 percent, without monetizing debt, while all major economies contracted. China produces more than it consumes and runs a balance of payments surplus, unlike the U.S. and many Western nations.” Even Tesla’s best-selling Model 3 car, he wrote, “may soon be made entirely in China.”

Makes you wonder if the Trump presidency will be remembered not for making America great but for China’s great leap past America. If you’re not worried about that, you haven’t been paying attention these last four years.

Thomas L. Friedman is the foreign affairs Op-Ed columnist. He joined the paper in 1981, and has won three Pulitzer Prizes. He is the author of seven books.

 


10/31/20 11:04 AM #8399    

 

David Barbour

Thank you, Mike, we needed that.  We are in your debt for keeping us abreast of the REAL news.

DB


10/31/20 11:14 AM #8400    

 

Michael McLeod

Dave: I wish I had nicer things to post. I mean, I do have nicer things to post. But the mess that we're in compels me to ignore them for the time being.. 


10/31/20 01:35 PM #8401    

 

David Mitchell

Mike,

 

As a Conservative Republican (and sympathizer with the "Lincoln Project") I am in near total agreement with your post. 

But two itmes jump out at me that I call into question;

1) Trump's tarrifs against China. Tarrifs are often a losing game, but these did serve notice to the Chinese that we were "mad as hell! And were were "not going to take this any longer".  

However there were segments of our economy that were hammered by these tarrifs. Farmers in general were hurt - some quite badly. And the 1,500 to 1,700 odd dairy farmers of Wisonsin who were put of of bisuness by the tarriff are hard to deny. One may argue corrrectly that they were already in a steep decline for several years, but Trump's tarrif actions put the final nail in their coffins.

Also the small "specialty steel" producers of Pennsylvania. They buy in smaller quantities and refine cheap Chinese steel into specialty steel products,  They cannot afford to buy better (and higher cost) steel to begin with. They got hurt badly. And since we only buy about 11% of our steel from China in the first place, that whole matter was somewhat symbolic.

 

2) from your quote;

Of course, America has at times behaved in cruel, nakedly self-interested, reckless and harmful ways toward other nations and peoples. Vietnam was real. Anti-democratic coups in Iran and Chile were real. Abu Ghraib was real. Separating children from their parents at our southern border was real.

Your quote seems to blame us for being the "bad guy" in this drama of Vietnam. I have to agree on certain points - ingorant and dishonest political leadership, bad tactical decisons, misguided political goals, etc, etc, etc.

But please don't throw us in with those other people on your list. There was if you recall, this group of rather nasty instigators who were the cause of our involvement, and who perpetrated millions of deaths to their own poeple - before, during, and long after we got there.

If I am not mistaken, Uncle Ho himself even apologized to his peopl for his execution of over two and a half million of his own people - not to mention a couple million Laotians and Cambodians (seperate from, and not including the Pol Pot "killing fields")

For all of our piss poor "management" of the situation, and for all of our (many) tactical mistakes, let us recall we were there not to cause trouble (which the French has heaped on them for 100 years). But our reason for being there was to defend a defenseless people against a highly organized military machine, who wanted nothng more than to enslave their own peole to an ideaology that offers two alternatives for dissent - prison or execution - on a massive scale.  

I think we can compare the post-Vietnam War Vetnamese Communist Party's "re-education" camps to the currrent day "prisons" of the Chinese Uyghurs.

 

I will be one of the loudest to criticise the liberals when they take office (next week). But until then, I am privately hoping the Republican party takes such a beating next week that they are forced to re-group and re-think the horrible sacrifices to basic honor and integrty they have made in the name of "party politics". I still believe that character matters, and this tendency towards "moral character be damned" attitude is a recipe for disaster. (and I'm not exonerating the Democrats from that issue at all)


10/31/20 02:16 PM #8402    

 

Mark Schweickart

Unlike Mike, I am afraid I may be one of those head-burying ostrich types who can only take so much political ugliness per day, and who relishes a moment of whimsy on the news when it oh-so-infrequently presents itself. Check out this report from Wichita, Kansas about a Home Depot being evacuated. And be aware of the danger of metaphor the next time your "fixin' to" do something.




10/31/20 02:32 PM #8403    

 

Mark Schweickart

John Jackson – If I am remembering this right, you have posted from time to time about your interest in Irish and English folk songs. If so, you might want ot check out a film I stumbled across on NetFlix yesterday called Fisherman's Friends. It is based on a true story about a group of fisherman in Cornwall (around 2010, I think) who liked to sing old 18th and 19th century sea-shanties while they are working or in the pub after work. I found the plot at first to be a bit contrived, but as the film progressed it completely won me over. Really charming and enjoyable. (Of course, this is not just a recommendation for John. I think all of you might enjoy this.)


10/31/20 04:49 PM #8404    

Timothy Lavelle

Watched "Queen's Gambit". Recommended by Mike MCLeod. Excellent. Netflix, I think.

Mike, you know I hate Big Orange, and admire your writing. (my "start out nice then insult the hell out of the person" approach) but I am just tired of the doom and gloom. We beat him or we don't. It is our America or it is the 'Murica Furst of others. Sucks, but simple as that. We have lived thru four years of what some of us hated and if we lose, we will likely live thru four more. Somehow. I recognize FULLY, and support, your right to post those  items just as I support that right for those that think the clown prince walks on aqua. Its not personal, I am just worn the eff down by all this. Again, nothing personal.

Dave, it's personal. It's hard to believe that in 20-20 vision (pretty good, see what I did there?) someone wants to look back at VN and justify it. I feel like you have a deep need to look back on some imagined heroics. Some special meaning to justify the time spent, wasted. To make it more of a success. Don't be hurt....but sort of like Trump tries to make BS into something heroic.

We did not do a damn thing heroic. We lived thru it which is about as heroic as I can stretch our experience to. Al Judy, Jack Maxwell, Kevin Cull and others who wore "the sack" may disagree completely with me. I respect their opinion because they don't spend time here trying to rewrite history to make us look better. Again I remind you that our fathers and grandfathers did not do that post WWll.  

By deciding that our form of government was right, and that it was high time Russia and China see us flex our muscles in Asia, we killed 50 plus thousand American boys and girls who thought our leaders could not be wrong and that we were actually supposed to be John effing Wayne. I really don't like your posts about VN but, again, it is your right and I will live thru many more of those posts just like I will live thru four more years of Trumpy if, at the end of the tally this week, this is not the country I thought it was.

 Go Bucks. Don't waste your time rooting on the Seahawks...they only play to make me sad!

 


10/31/20 05:27 PM #8405    

 

James Hamilton, M. D.

Mike McL.,

Recently I have been trying to avoid political discussions on this Forum and this will be my last - and brief - statement prior to the election.

In your post Mr. Friedman, a NYT op-ed writer, wrote "If that happens, what America has lost these past four years will become permanent."

I agree with Tim that I am tired of the "gloom and doom" aproach that is becoming a theme of Mr. Biden. Those that hate President Trump can argue his personality and even his policies if they are opposed to them. However, only one party is talking about "dark winters" and "fundementally transforming America" into a country that is going to be totally different - if they are elected and succeed in their promises - from what we have known in the past.

And that is not the Republican Party.

Jim


10/31/20 07:34 PM #8406    

Joseph Gentilini

I will agree with Jim Hamilton in that I also have not chimed in here my feelings about the condidates or the election.  However, I will just say this:  I see no redeeming qualities in Mr. Trump and believe he is a traitor to this country in some aspects.  I hope he is not re-elected.  


11/01/20 11:48 AM #8407    

 

Michael McLeod

I think you have misrepresented the democrats yet again, Jim.

But you probably think I've misrepresented your boy, or at least your cause.

One way or the other I'm chill from here on out. What will be will be. If Trump wins and escapes the jail sentences he might otherwise face I'll be gloomy, if it goes the other way I won't be here to gloat. In either case, if we have any sense,  we'll all come to an understanding that what needs to be attended to in this country should be practical matters more than dogmatic ones. It would he helpful to acknowledge that we've lost our way. 

I know we've been testy at times and I absolutely include myself on that, but on the whole the exchanges on this forum have been healthy ones. Not vituperative. I just wanted to use that word.


11/01/20 02:16 PM #8408    

 

John Jackson

Mark,  I took your advice and watched Fisherman’s Friends last night – found it on Apple TV.  Taking to heart Mike’s wise counsel that we avoid vituperation, I have to tell you that I thought  the movie was good and I did enjoy the music.  And the scenery/views of the Cornwall coast reminded of the west of Ireland. Thanks for the recommendation.

The acapella music in the film reminds me of one of my favorite Irish groups, The Voice Squad, which I admit is a spectacularly awful name for a boy band consisting of three older men (I won’t call them elderly, because they look to be about our age) who sing traditional Irish songs in rich and perfect three-part harmonies. 

The (semi) famous song in the clip below is The Parting Glass, which in Irish lore is the final glass drunk just before everyone goes home for the night.  The song has even intersected with the music of our time - the melody of Bob Dylan’s Restless Farewell is one of the melodies the song is sung to. 

So on the surface this is a song about leaving good friends after a night in the pub, but it's also a song about leaving via emigration (there are hundreds/thousands of songs in Irish music on this theme) or, especially, a song about the final leave-taking, death.

Many, many performers have sung the song (from the Clancy Brothers to Phish) but this is the one that really grabs me.  


11/01/20 04:34 PM #8409    

Timothy Lavelle

Haha... I think the V in LaVelle stands for vitupera...vituperuh....Mike's word.

Jim, I don't enjoy it when you agree with me. I always expect your next remark to be "Now turn your head and cough"...

You took my remark about stopping the doom n gloom and immediately decided that I was referring to the Dems. That is the second time one of you cave people have done that. Acording to Teflon himself, if Joe wins, western civilization will end. Our economy will be shattered etc. It's all doom n gloom crap. 

You're a good man as is Mike and Dave. But, re your remarks...I play defensive end for the "Never Effing Ever" team. 

....i'm so excited, just cannot hide it...

 


11/01/20 04:53 PM #8410    

 

Mary Ann Nolan (Thomas)

Speaking of Netflix Jeff and  I just finished watching the first season of Queen's Gambit. It is mesmerizing from start to finish. Acting is superb. 
I want to learn how to play chess🤩😁


11/01/20 06:40 PM #8411    

 

Frank Ganley

 
We've heard about this for 4 years now, but hopefully the same results will happen again and Trump will win by and even larger margin!!!
 
319 Square Miles

It will take you approximately 39 seconds to read this email. Please read and pass it on.....

In their infinite wisdom, the United States Founders created the Electoral College to ensure the States were fairly represented. Why should one or two densely populated areas speak for the whole of the nation?

The following list of statistics has been making the rounds on the Internet. It should finally put an end to the argument as to why the Electoral College makes sense. Do share this It needs to be widely known and understood.

There are 3,141 counties in the United States.
- Trump won 3,084 of them.
- Clinton won 57.
There are 62 counties in New York State
- Trump won 46 of them.
- Clinton won 16
Clinton won the popular vote by approximately 1.5 million votes.
- In the 5 counties that encompass NYC, (Bronx, Brooklyn, Manhattan, Richmond & Queens) Clinton received well over 2 million more votes than Trump (Clinton only won 4 of these counties; Trump won Richmond)
- Therefore these 5 counties alone, more than accounted for Clinton winning the popular vote of the entire country.
These 5 counties comprise 319 square miles.
The United States is comprised of 3,797,000 square miles

When you have a country that encompasses almost 4 million square miles of territory, it would be ludicrous to even suggest that the vote of those who inhabit a mere 319 square miles should dictate the outcome of a national election.

Large, densely populated Democrat cities (NYC, Chicago, LA, etc.) DO NOT and SHOULD NOT speak for the rest of our country!

And It's been verified and documented that those 319 square miles are where the majority of our nation's problems foment.
 
 
 

11/01/20 09:26 PM #8412    

 

John Jackson

Frank, your post is a textbook example of “fake news” - how the information environment, particularly on the right, has become so polluted by Fox News and amplified by viral garbage circulated endlessly on Facebook and other social media platforms.

The claim that Hilary won 57 counties doesn't even begin to pass the laugh test.  According to the Associated Press:

CLAIM: There are 3,141 counties in the U.S. Trump won 3,084. Clinton won 57. 

AP’S ASSESSMENT: False. Trump won 2,626 counties while Clinton took 487 of them nationwide. 

THE FACTS: The false claim, which was first made in 2016 and resurfaced this week on Facebook, is paired with an inaccurate map of election results. The map shows county-by-county wins shaded as red for Trump and blue for Clinton. Several counties that Clinton won in Pennsylvania, Kentucky, Indiana and Ohio are inaccurately colored as red for Trump. 

The claim that Hilary won the popular vote by only 1.5 million is also disinformation.  According to AP:

While Trump won more counties and electoral votes than Clinton, she won the popular vote by more than 3 million. 

Admittedly, Trump won counties by a ratio of 5:1, but are you arguing that a sparsely-populated county in Wyoming with a population of 20,000 deserves to have the same say as a county with several million residents in New York or California or Florida or Texas?  Sparsely-populated states already have a huge over-representation in our government because of the make-up of the Senate and the Electoral College.  And as the population increasingly gravitates to larger states and cities, the imbalance will only grow. According to Norman Ornstein of the American Enterprise Institute, by 2040 30% of the U.S. population will elect 70% of senators:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2018/07/12/in-about-20-years-half-the-population-will-live-in-eight-states/

Sorry for my frustration (vituperation?), but from Fox News to crazy Facebook posts to all the tiny right-wing sites that only true believers follow (so there is no accountability), there is just so much crap out there on the right.

 

 


11/01/20 10:12 PM #8413    

 

Michael McLeod

happy to see others enjoying the queen's gambit. I think it's brilliant - realistic of high stakes chess and the actress is brilliant.


11/01/20 11:02 PM #8414    

 

David Mitchell

Mary Ann,

Maybe I should give you my 10 year-old grandson's name for chess on-line. He doesn't want to play me anymore after beating me about 14 out 15 games. LOL


11/01/20 11:59 PM #8415    

 

David Mitchell

Tim,

I think it is safe to say that you and I had two different experiences in Vietnam - just as Al, Kevin, Jack, and othres probably had. And that we have different views of what we see in life.

Very different!     (and BTW, so, appraently did our fathers in WW2) 

I have never shied away from my criticism of our ignorant, grossly mis-managed, inept, and politically motivated, approach to that debacle. (yes, easier to say now in retrospect). But we did not go there as "invaders", with evil intentions. We went there with good intentions, looking to assist the innocent people in their efforts to ward off tthe oncoming tidal wave of enslavement. That was my point in my answering Mikes's post.

Sadly, we walked into a quagmire of the mess of "French Colonialism", mixed with a group of (Diem) brothers who had the authority and the intellignece to make things right, but in their lust for power, screwed things up beyond control.

I only share some personal experiences with the "human side" of what I saw from my own microcosm view of the overall situation. The "human side" is everywhere we are, every day, everywhere - in good situations and in bad. 

But for you to tell me that no one could have ever learned anything from it, or seen anything beautiful (or heroic) in it, is to deny what I personally saw and experienced. 

Your "tour of duty" was NOT my "tour of duty". You and I saw and experienced different things.

 


11/02/20 10:15 AM #8416    

 

Michael McLeod

Well said, David.

On the usual front, not sure which part of this story frightens and saddens  me more - the incident or the crass, borderline insane response:

 

Tensions had flared on Friday in Texas when a group of Trump supporters driving trucks and waving Trump flags surrounded and slowed a Biden-Harris campaign bus as it drove on Interstate 35, leading to the cancellation of two planned rallies — an episode that the F.B.I. said it was investigating.

On Saturday, Mr. Trump tweeted a video of the incident with a message, “I love Texas!” After the F.B.I. said on Sunday that it was investigating, he tweeted again, saying, “In my opinion, these patriots did nothing wrong,” adding that instead, “the FBI & Justice should be investigating the terrorists, anarchists, and agitators of ANTIFA.”


11/02/20 11:35 AM #8417    

 

Mary Margaret Clark (Schultheis)

https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2020/11/02/but-peaceful-trump-caravans-with-big-scary-flags-epic-video-thread-shows-real-violence-in-america-and-it-aint-trump-supporters/


11/02/20 12:30 PM #8418    

 

Michael McLeod

Guess the radical left press must have dressed up some fat white people and faked the photographs I saw, MM.

But let's just hope we don't go all third world on Wednesday.


11/02/20 01:40 PM #8419    

 

David Mitchell

And I guess the same goes for all of us when it comes to politics. We see things differently.

But I find it curious that our news coverage of all these violent demonstrations come out now, when a number of "anti-government", right-wing, whtie supremicist groups have been training for and advocating violence for years. My kids in Portland have been mentioning incidences from around Portland, Oregon area, regarding the "proud boys" for several years. Why are we hearing about them just now?

Could it be taht is because someone has bated, and even encouraged them to come out?

And it was another right-wing group, the "Boogaloo Boiz" who kept getting arrested by the FBI for showing up in cities where the demonstartions were held, all carrying back packs full of explosives. 

It seems to me that the demonstrations that got out of hand and were hijacked by rioters is a very frightening thing. But when we see these right-wing groups showing up in large numbers, in full riot gear, and armed with assualt rifles, that looks suspiciously like it is planned and pre-meditated.

And that's a whole 'nother ball game, on a much more serious, and more threatening scale.  


11/02/20 07:05 PM #8420    

 

James Hamilton, M. D.

How to Live a Long (But Perhaps Lonely) Life

It is again time for a little humor.

Many of you like to quote your favorite newspapers and other literature often on topics of a political nature. As for me, I prefer and enjoy reading more entertaining stories about life, animal and human, happening outside of the news.

Colorado Life Magazine is one of my favorite publications and its focus is on people, places and history in this state. The Nov/Dec issue arrived in my mail a few days ago and I finally got around to reading some of its articles today. One that caught my attention was "Idaho Springs - Where the Old meets the New West" by Ian Neligh.

Those of you who are skiers may have passed by this 2-mile long town which lies along I-70 west of Denver as you drive to many of Colorado's ski resorts. I do not ski but have been by and stopped here many times. Idaho Springs, like several mountain cities, grew up as a gold mining boom town. Its history is rich with folks and folklore from those mining days and some of the current residents share traits with those hardy people of that bygone era. 

I would like to offer a quote from this article which struck me as a good example of someone who may have been a good example of the need for social distancing.

     "On the South side of the town at the bottom af Bridal Veil falls is the iconic Charlie Tayler

       waterwheel, originally built in 1893 by a miner who professed his long life was due to

       never bathing himself or kissing a woman."

I suspect his two non-actions are somehow related.

Folklore. One has to wonder how these stories get started.

Jim

 

 

 


11/02/20 09:22 PM #8421    

 

John Jackson

Jim, kind of reminds me of Texas singer Robert Earl Keen who claimed his affection for Copenhagen chewing tobacco meant he was never troubled with either worms or long relationships.


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