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10/29/18 03:13 PM #4231    

 

Michael McLeod

And then there are times when I say to myself: "They didn't have Fox news when Buddha was around," and I just cut loose. 


10/29/18 03:47 PM #4232    

 

James Hamilton, M. D.

John,

I did look at your link to the tables of illegal entry apprehensions (I had seen some of this data before). Certainly, there has been a decrease which is good, but still we have way too many illegal entry apprehensions. Also, it is unknown how many enter who are not apprehended.

It is still my contention that there needs to be tighter borders, better and enforceable laws, better vetting and a goal that all entries should be legal. As a federal employee I was vetted, fingerprinted and drug tested more times than I can remember during my career. Sometimes this was done because I was "tasked with an extra mission" such as having to do pediatric school physicals (patients with whom internists usually are not involved) to insure that I was not a child molester. Is it too much to ask that immigrants' backgrounds should be investigated also?

In my post #4213 I asked some questions that maybe you can answer. Who do you think is funding them? Organizing them? I have no proof of who is doing this but I hope we can agree that someone or group is, although we will probably differ in who that would be. A "right wing conspiracy"? That argument did not impress me even when Hillary used it years ago.

If you do not believe that some, mostly on the left, want open borders I feel you are sadly mistaken.

As I said in a previous post, #4230, NO ONE really knows the makeup - percentage wise - of who is in the caravan. Reporter's interviews cannot tell the whole story and their clips on TV can be selected and edited to fit an agenda. But I highly doubt they are all fleeing due to oppressive governments or economic opportunities. The timing and size of this migration is, to say the least, suspect. Again, they need to be vetted.

Jim

 

 


10/29/18 04:29 PM #4233    

 

Mary Ann Nolan (Thomas)

John,

I would like to hear more of your thoughts on everyday issues such as immigration, healthcare, religion environment and leadership. There is a user forum on this site where we are “allowed” to speak of these things and also a Watterson 66 Facebook page that someone created.


10/29/18 05:27 PM #4234    

 

Michael McLeod

Happy to move into specifics. I'd like to see the voices from the left who want open borders that you speak of, Jim. 

I do think it's interesting and somewhat sad that the conversation here today is based on percieved threats from outside, rather than within, given recent, tragic events. 

In the meantime - this from the Chicago Tribune:

Here and there, now and then, there are certainly Democrats who support “open borders” — international boundaries marked merely with the sort of “Welcome to …” signs that separate, say, Illinois from Wisconsin, or, at most, the cursory, nod-and-wave checkpoints that used to separate the U.S. from Canada.

The left is home to more than a few one-world utopians, and it’s healthy to have thought experiments every now and then. Why do freedoms of movement and association ostensibly granted by nature or, if you will, God, stop at man-made borders? That kind of thing.

 
ADVERTISING


But really, no. President Donald Trump’s increasingly frequent accusation along these lines is a lie.

“Democrats love open borders," he said in a June 19 speech to the National Federation of Independent Businesses.

“The Democrats want open borders," Trump said the following day in a speech in Duluth, Minn. “Let everybody come in. Let everybody pour in — we don't care, let them come in from the Middle East, let them come in from all over the place. We don't care.”

And on Monday, speaking to reporters: “The Democrats want open borders, and they don't care about crime,”

Then there are the tweets: Democrats “want Open Borders and don’t care about Crime!” (June 24) “The Democrats are in Turmoil! Open Borders and unchecked Crime” and “the Democrats… want Open Borders and Unlimited Crime” (Tuesday) , “THE DEMS WANT OPEN BORDERS” (Wednesday) and so on.

 

As Trump has repeated this canard, first on the campaign trail and now in the White House, journalistic fact-checkers have repeatedly examined the claim and ruled it false.

Politico, September 2016: “Trump said again last week during a North Carolina rally that (Hillary Clinton) was for ‘open borders.’ In fact, her position includes supporting recent immigration legislation that sought to heighten the country’s border security while installing a new system that finds people who have overstayed their visas and has them removed from the U.S.”

The Guardian, October 2016: Democratic President Barack “Obama has deported a record more than 2.5 million people since he took office, including a record 438,421 people in 2013, and increased border patrol staff to a record 21,444 agents in 2011; his policy could not reasonably be described as ‘amnesty’ or ‘open borders.’ ”

PolitiFact, June 28: “Trump bases this attack on Democratic opposition to his promised border wall with Mexico. Democrats argue a border wall is costly and not the most effective tool to combat illegal immigration and crime. Instead, they favor other types of barriers, technology, increases in border personnel and other improvements.”

New York Times, June 27: “In 2013, every single Democrat in the Senate voted for the so-called Gang of Eight immigration overhaul bill that would have provided about $40 billion for border enforcement, including deploying thousands more agents and building 700 miles of fencing … And in 2006, 26 Senate Democrats voted to build 700 miles of walls and fences on the southwestern border.”

New rallying cry for Democrats pondering 2020 run for president: 'Abolish ICE' »

The Times also noted that all 193 House Democrats have signed onto a proposal that “enhances technology used to monitor the border, and provides $110 million in grants annually for collaboration between local law enforcement and Border Patrol agents.”

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, the young Democrat who identifies as a socialist and stunned the Democratic establishment Tuesday when she upset veteran New York Rep. Joe Crowley in a congressional primary, flatly denied in an interview with NPR on Wednesday the oft-printed accusation that she is for open borders.

“We have to have a secure border,” she told host Steve Inskeep. “We need to make sure that people are, in fact, documented.”

These truths are not likely to knock Trump off message, and the right-wing media seems to have his back on this topic. In a response to the New York Times fact-check, the Washington Examiner’s Philip Wegmann triumphantly offered the counter-example of Rep. Keith Ellison, D-Minn., the Deputy Chair of the Democratic National Committee, who in May was photographed at a parade wearing a T-shirt that said, in Spanish, “I don’t believe in borders.”

That’s one. Maybe. I found no other mention online of Ellison promoting open borders. Ellison’s office in Washington did not provide a clarifying statement when I inquired Friday.

Wegmann’s other example was actor Cynthia Nixon, who is challenging New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo in the Democratic gubernatorial primary.

“Nixon hasn’t called for abolishing the border just yet,” Wegmann conceded, but her support of driver’s licenses for undocumented immigrants and making New York a “sanctuary state” makes it “obvious she wants to make (the border) meaningless for anyone who has already crossed over it illegally.”

In this we glimpse the actual contours of the actual debate between the parties about how to secure the border and how to deal with otherwise law-abiding people who are living here illegally.

It’s a vital debate, but saying “open borders” are under serious consideration only serves to poison it.

 

 


10/29/18 07:06 PM #4235    

Lawrence Foster

Please pardon my interruption of the serious discussion for just a brief moment.

Jim,  while going through my life box earlier today I found this School Safety Patrol pin in the envelope with my 7th grade report card.   We had larger ones on our patrol belt gear but we must have recieved these very small ones as souvenirs for our work.   

Okay, I now return you all to the previous continuing discussion.  Thank you for your patience.


10/29/18 07:49 PM #4236    

 

David Mitchell

I'm sure there are criminal elements withing these caravans, but I still hold the belief that one fo the "subsidies" that is "funding" these people is the muzzle of an Uzzi or a Mac-10 pointed at your kids faces by the paid goons of the drug cartels in rural areas. Or maybe it's just the generations of living in hopeles poverty, coupled with the scent of a better life up Norte. We've spent a century taking advantage of Latin American economies (that and 500 years of abusive class systems enforced by the Spanish Kings and their partner, the Spanish Catholic Church) and now we want to try and treat the symptoms with a political band aid. Ridiculous!

I get it that we need to find some way to vette these people. But placing their kids in "holding cells" in cyclone fence cages with concrete floors and no mattresses, etc, etc, etc. We can put a man on the moon, but we can't even pass out pillows and popsicles to these kids. (Oh well, aluminum foil survival blankets are good - yea). And have a few responsible adults caring for their safety. Shameful! 

(Meanwhile I trust you will hear absolutely no mention of the number of small industires in America being crushed by the new tarriff war - boat builders in Wisconsin, Lobstermen in Maine, small "specialty" steelemakers in Pennsylvania - they can't afford to buy high priced American steele, they buy the cheap stuff from China and refine it. And this is killing them).  Not helping!

It would probaly take another century (and who has that kind of time, right?), but we could actually help these countries to re-develop their own economies and create jobs, which in the long run would help stem the flight from poverty. And both sides could benefit from it. Oops sorry, I'm halucinating again. Better to behave as Lord and Master. We don't need to "re-tool" to play that tune - over and over again. And that way we get to be "winners". 


10/29/18 07:51 PM #4237    

 

David Mitchell

Larry,

Would you please stop talking while I'm interrupting?


10/29/18 07:58 PM #4238    

 

David Mitchell

Golly, isn't this fun?

Getting to flash our egos and yell at each other as if anyone but the six of us is even listening?

I haven't had this much fun since we pushed my older brother into the gorilla cage at the zoo. 


10/29/18 08:06 PM #4239    

Lawrence Foster

Dave why did you push your brother into the gorilla cage at the zoo?  Was it because you were just "monkeying around" and it was an accident? 


10/29/18 09:47 PM #4240    

 

James Hamilton, M. D.

Larry,

Nice fall picture of Ohio foliage (looks vaguely familiar 😉)! I think I also have one of those AAA pins stashed away somewhere along with an alter boy pin or cufflinks. I'm a pack rat but not an organized one.

And, Dave, no more from me about migration unless it involves Monarch Butterflies or Sandhill Cranes.

Jim

10/29/18 10:11 PM #4241    

 

David Mitchell

Larry,

Da debil made me do it!


10/30/18 12:21 AM #4242    

 

David Mitchell

​As we conclude this little segment of lively discussion, it occurs to me that we are all seeking the answer to that same age-old soul searching question;

 

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

Are we Human?  Or are we dancer?



A rather interesting "cover" of the song by the Killers. The group is "Cinematic Pop" and they do a cool version of one of my all-time favorite rock songs "Chasing Cars" by the Scottish rock group, Snow Patrol.       The kid's name is Spencer Jones.


10/30/18 11:30 AM #4243    

 

Michael McLeod

Gotta tell you: I, for one, will be sorry if we stop debating the issues -- and people head off to silos to discuss them. My reason is quite selfish. I've never been in this position before but I am seeing a reflection, a kind of mirror image,  of the story that I am working on now right here, on this forum, in the back and forth we've had about politics.

I'm in the middle of a story about Hamilton, the musical about the revolutionary war that has won every prize you can think of. I'm trying to grasp why it's been so popular. And one thing I have come to understand is how strong the parallel is between the battles our founding fathers fought in pulling together the country -- and what is going on right now as we continue to work out what this thing called a democracy is. That same battle, way back then, is captured better in this musical than it was in any of those stodgy old history books they made us read.

I think Hamilton is a bit like the Beatle invasion when it come to capturing the spirit of a particular time period. No, not so much capturing it - giving us a message we need to hear. With the Beatles it was just joy, really. We'd been through so much and were at such a low ebb they lifted out spirits as a country. Hamilton is all about unity, Battling like crazy but needing to figure out how to get along.

I'm not saying any of this as well as I hope to when I work this all out in the story. It will take a while but I will post it here when it comes out. 

 

 


10/30/18 12:07 PM #4244    

Timothy Lavelle

I just need to unburden myself to the readership.

I havs been stalking Mary Ann Nolan since we were all about 14!

...and to pour my bleeding heart socialist, bordering-on-communist, views out here...my "all men are created equal" diatribe...and then along comes "Sensible John Jackson" and after he makes a couple of albright...er, albeit...excellent posts complete with politeness, data and talking points, who does Mary Ann invite to a "side room to continue this conversation"? Sure, Sensible John, who is not nearly as much of a red-dog communist as I must surely be.

O the pain of it all.

Mary Ann, I will no longer stalk you! BLAME YOURSELF! I will return to stalking the other 67 BWBs I have on my list.

It is true that my lovely wife holds the BWB list and only lets me look at it once a year at Christmas.

Sure lookin' forward to Christmas! 


10/30/18 01:41 PM #4245    

 

John Jackson

Jim, I’m OK with illegal entries if people surrender at the border and are allowed to plead their case about why they deserve asylum.  But I’m not OK with drastic measures like taking their kids away to intimidate them from trying to make that case.  I agree that our goal should be zero people who sneak across the border undetected – no rational country wants people to enter that way.  

On the question of who is funding the Caravan I have no idea but I think it’s entirely possible (even likely) that the main funding is provided by poor people gathering together what little wealth they have for one last desperate try.   I’m extremely skeptical that liberal interests (the Clintons, George Soros, Nancy Pelosi, all the usual suspects) are funding it because of the importance of the Caravan to Trump and the rest of the Republicans in motivating their xenophobic base for the midterms - why would Dems serve this issue up to them?  I know that liberal funding of the Caravan is a mantra on Fox News and other conservative media, but until you come up with some plausible evidence, it’s completely unsubstantiated and a textbook example of a conspiracy theory.

Likewise, since you think support for open borders is embraced by “some” on the left (by “some” I assume you mean not just a tiny handful), it shouldn’t be difficult for you to provide examples of three or four prominent Democrats who support this view - I’ll accept verbatim quotes or campaign materials, or really anything other than your assertion that this is true.  This is yet another example of the right making stuff up (remember “Obamacare is a complete government takeover of health care”?) and then repeating it ad nauseam until substantial numbers of people actually believe it.

I’m with Dave – allowing in “the huddled masses yearning to breathe free” is part of our very DNA as a country.  Illegal entries are at a 20 year low and the current “crisis” is a totally manufactured one which is being cynically exploited by a demagogue of prodigious talent.  We can’t afford to admit all who would come, but if we’re not prepared to admit at least some of the most deserving, I say we cut up the Statue of Liberty and sell it for scrap because it doesn't represent who we are anymore.

Having said that, I’ll let Jim (or anyone else) have the last word and maybe the Forum will revert to less controversial topics.  I’ll recede into the background, where, believe it or not, I’m actually way more comfortable.

 

 


10/30/18 01:59 PM #4246    

 

David Mitchell

Tim,

I happen to live about 35 minutes from Mary Ann and am sorry to inform you that she has found, stumbled upon, or chased down (take your pick) one of the nicest guys on this little corner of the planet. Any fantasies you may still harbor in these late chapters or our lives will surely lead to your own frustration.   

* And I will continue to pray that your wife does not read the "Forum" 

 

If however, you yourself happen to be in touch with a spare elidgible female, I am happy to forward my address - (and bank account number). It would help if she knows how to shuck "ohystas" and peel "shreeimp".


10/30/18 02:12 PM #4247    

 

David Mitchell

Regarding another more trying matter in the news - Pittsburgh.

I wouldn't even bring this into the Forum except for an exceptionally positive story following the shooting at Tree of Life synagogue. I can't seem to post the link, but if you google something from the Washington Post about "Jewish Hospital treats Pittsburgh shooter" - or try  "I'm Dr. Cohen" - you will read a short artcile that will really give your heart a boost and restore your faith in the best side of mankind. 

Sorry I can't get it to post but reaally it's worth hunting for.


10/30/18 02:39 PM #4248    

 

Michael McLeod

I am interviewing somebody who is a lawyer at this firm:

 

Winderweedle, Haines, Ward, and Woodman

 

I asked my friend who gave me the contact info if Winderweedle was a real person or a character in a Harry Potter story.

 

John: I appreciate your well-reasoned posts. It really is much better all around when people pitch in with their opinions whatever they may be. 


10/30/18 03:56 PM #4249    

 

James Hamilton, M. D.

John et. al.,

Here I am, sitting waiting to get my hair cut. I was considering a "man bun" but that does not fit my conservative image. With my current hair status, maybe I can start a new trend, the "man donut hole". 👨😁

I have never mentioned whom I think is funding the Caravan because I do not know for sure who is. However, I find it very difficult to believe that some deep pocket individuals are not involved.

In regard to open borders very few have admitted to this but those who want to do away with ICE are likely to be moving toward such a status. Do I have proof? No, but the writing is on the wall (no pun intended). It would seem that the more radical, "new left" is driving that train.

Obamacare - to me it was obvious from the beginning that the ultimate goal is universal, single payer healthcare, "Medicare for all", and that single payer would be the government (us taxpayers), ie. socialized medicine.

As a physician and a patient I support coverage for pre-existing conditions in most cases. I also support competitive, portable and across state lines private and group insurance policies, health savings plans and other non-government options. I oppose forcing anyone to buy insurance they do not want. Once medicine becomes socialized other dominoes are likely to fall under that system.

Mike,

I do enjoy these discussions and believe them to be of value. I would hope others would contribute also. Needless to say, we should keep it civil and remember that, despite our differences, we are all Americans, friends and of the same vintage.

Jim

10/30/18 06:10 PM #4250    

 

Mary Margaret Clark (Schultheis)

Hi all,

Sticking my neck out. but for what it is worth here it goes. 

"While no single group has claimed control of the migrant caravan, at least two activists from Pueblo Sin Fronteras—Denis Omar Contreras and Rodrigo Abeja—are embedded in the caravan, according to the Los Angeles Times, the Washington Post, and the Mexican newspaper, La Jornada.

Following this statement, I decided to do some research on how the migrant caravan got its start. I began by doing a Google search which led me to KeyWiki where I searched for Pueblo Sin Fronteras which is the group to whom the organizers belong. I searched the associated links to see with whom they are affiliated.  I also searched their FB page and so I am linking to an article that was posted on their page on Oct. 20th.  In addition, I have also downloaded to this Forum post another Pueblo Sin Fronteras FB post which is just below.

 

http://www.hondurassolidarity.org/2018/10/20/honduran-migrant-march-a-refugee-crisis-caused-by-us-policy-and-us-partners/?fbclid=IwAR1w4MCttgejRbl4ieMzetve-WnX8vy4m2rvyJGskP0nQta6G8vEpxfQt7M

Pueblo Sin Fronteras is a member of the National Day Laborer Organizing Network.

The National Day Laborer Organizing Network is affiliated with the United for Peace and Justice

United for Peace and Justice is a partner organization of the Institute for Policy Studies

The Institute for Policy Studies is closely aligned with The Nation publication.

From <https://keywiki.org/Pueblo_Sin_Fronteras>

Pueblo Sin Fronteras

https://www.influencewatch.org/non-profit/pueblo-sin-fronteras/


10/30/18 07:49 PM #4251    

Timothy Lavelle

Maggie, 

I would like to understand your point, without assuming anything. Currently it would be too easy for me to think, "Well, Mary Margaret must be against these people"...but honestly, I am not sure. There is a remark in the letter that makes the US sound like bullies. But I am just not understanding where you want to go or exactly the point. But likely I am just lame...pun intended...and simply ned your clarification. I am happy you are in this mix since you are number 32 in my BWBs list. And, dumb jokes aside, while we do not agree, you have a right to the floor at least as much as any man who would consider...EVEN CONSIDER... a man-bun!

Mary Ann...that was not me parked across the street with my new Bushnell binoculars this morning...but be on guard...Dave M knows your address!

Hey, all, if these jokes about stalking are not funny, I invite your personal or public criticism. I am probably more thick (headed) skinned than most of you. 


10/30/18 08:11 PM #4252    

 

David Mitchell

I still think we are making the wrong argument. I personally do not see that, at it's core, this is a left-wing vs. right-wing issue. Oh, it may be on the surface (this carvan funding or that caravan funding - or this bad influence, or that) and it makes for great poitical debate. But I refer back to my earlier post about people who have been poor for generations and having to face gangs with machine guns in your kids faces, etc.,etc. Actually, it gets worse than that in places.

Here is a true story that may or may not add to your grasp of the gravity of the situation in Mexico. I have an acquaintance over just the last frew years that I met late one night at Savannah airport. I was doing my "second" job - driving for a private car service. My "Pickup" this night was a young guy with a heavy Spanish accent, about 40 years old. As is often the case, I get into some interesting conversations with them in the 45 minutes to an hour long ride to their homes in Bluffton or out on Hilton Head Island.

My passenger was coming to live with his sister in a nice gated community near Bluffton. He mentioned being a pilot, and that always grabs my attention (duh!). He was coming to live with his well-married younger sis because he was broke (long story about wife divorcing him and letting their restuarant go into bankruptcy while he was in Africa and so on). He had been a United Nations 747 pilot, flying re-supply missions of food and supplies to Africa for six months at a time.

But before that, he had been a Mexican Air Force Pilot. Silly me, I had no idea Mexico even had an Air Force.  He was a fighter pilot and had about 12 years in service, just months shy of making the rank of LT. Colonel.

But he quit! He resigned his commission. Why?

He had been assigned to those units who were flying fighter bombing raids on the indigenous (civilian, and desperately poor) people of Mexico down in the southern state of Chiapas.                  Bombing missions - unarmed civilians!

He simply couldn't do it. 

It's easy (and interesting) to argue back and forth about which political side is correct - and which side proves their point better - and to load up on more sources of evidence. But it's also easy to forget that at the core of this story we are talking about poor, desperate, defenseless, civilian human beings - con ninos. 


10/30/18 08:31 PM #4253    

 

David Mitchell

Maybe I should have posted a different song. How about something from Mary Poppins?


10/31/18 03:52 AM #4254    

 

James Hamilton, M. D.

I just read that armed civilians and some so-called militias are preparing to "assist" the military in "defending" our border. This is totally unacceptable and very dangerous.

There are most likely many who disagree with President Trump's decision to order our servicemen and women to the border. But I, for one, trust our military whom I know are trained well to handle delicate situations with restraint, as they have often demonstrated in recent wars and conflicts. In fact, I fear that if our troops were not going to be present, such vigilantes could take matters into their own hands with disastrous results. Our military is often deployed for humanitarian missions which frequently involves defensive elements. The troops being sent include medical and support personnel to help with this situation and the last thing they need is to have to deal with interfering groups such as these.

Jim

10/31/18 10:09 AM #4255    

 

Michael McLeod

Warms my journalist heart to see everybody digging into research. Hooray for an informed citizenry.

This may or may not be of interest -- if you are interested in music, travel, the effect of world events on individuals it might be, but I for one find this guy fascinating. He is a key figure in a documentary I think I have recommended before. It's called The Music of Strangers. Brilliantly follows a 20-year old and continuing campaign by cellist Yo Yo Ma to use music to create peace in the world. This fellow is a part of that crusade.

http://www.orlandomagazine.com/Blogs/Metropoly/October-2018/An-Instrument-of-Peace/

 


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