The message forum is an ongoing dialogue between classmates. There are no items, topics, subtopics, etc.

Forums work when people participate - so don't be bashful! Click the "Post Message" button to add your entry to the forum.

Michael McLeod

I'll second what Mark just said. You've got the details of a great yarn and a natural ability to tell it that, frankly, pisses me off just a bit as somebody who has to work hard to tell a tale properly, Not just saying that to blow smoke up your skirt. No brag, just fact. Name the vintage pop-culture reference to prove how old you are. 

David Mitchell

Mike,

You mean like, Buffalo Bob?  

Or maybe Tiny Tim?

No, Cindy Lauper!

Michael McLeod

Seriously: Who can tell me what character in a very well-known 50s tv series would often say "No brag, just fact." ? 

For some reason or other it has always stuck with me.

I'll give it a coupla days and then do the big reveal -- or provide a hint -  if no one gets it.

Mark Schweickart

Mike -- No idea about your 50's culture pop-quiz. Let's have that hint.

But to change the subject. I know we are trying our best to keep politics out of the Forum discussions,  nonetheless, what I am about to say may cross that line slightly, but it is intended to be just  a movie review. Tim and I were discussing the new film, Vice, recently off-Forum, and I thought I would share my thoughts, since the Forum seems to have stalled lately. Here is what I wrote to Tim. 

I came ame away with mixed feelings. Obviously I was blown away by  the craftsmanship of Christian Bale's physical transformation and his studied rendering of the Cheney mumble. Likewise Sam Rockwell's GW was right on. I was quite impressed with, but at the same time left scrambled by, the director's weird genre-defying approach. Can you call something like this a comedy, when so much of it brings up such horrifying memories? But anything that sticks a set of faux end-credits into the middle of the film, or has Lynne and Dick suddenly speaking in the language of Mr. and Mrs. Macbeth, is clearly (sort-of) a comedy. Not that I am a stickler for genre rules, it's just that it does sort of jumble one's response mechanisms. I guess if anything I was left thinking that as absurdly horrible all of this was back then, as portrayed here, I think it only skimmed the surface. Well, no, that's not fair. I take that back, There was a lot of substance here. I guess what I mean is that there was so much evil-doing going on during those Bush-Cheney years, that maybe we could have had some sort of a recap at the end to really drive home the insidiousness of it all. Although I did think that having Cheney get the last word in was an interesting touch, where he tries to place himself on the moral high-ground as our lord and protector. You have to assume that people who do evil things, generally have this kind of rationalizing mechanism in place to feel self-justified. Sure 3000 Twin Towers casualties is deplorable, but to be answered cavalierly with the deaths of hundreds of thousands in Iraqi civilians, and pretend his map of how to divide up the oil fields had nothing to do with it – well, now?

The one thing I most liked learning about from the film was his back story. I had no idea he was such a drunken, drop-out of an oaf in his early days. Nor did I know much about his reaction to having a gay daughter, or the role his wife played. Hell, I didn't even know he had a heart transplant.

I guess the bottom line for me was that instead of coming away feeling more justified in my opinion of how horrible the Bush-Cheney years were, instead it just made me feel rather sad because of the piling on of even more insidiousness we are now experiencing here in the Trump years. I think I would have enjoyed this movie more if it had come out during Obama's tenure. But now, it just sort of adds to the over-all malaise. Nonetheless, it is great to see this kind of film being made, and getting wide circulation, instead of being poo-pooed, and shoved aside as just a piece of liberal propaganda. You've got to give the writer-director McKay a lot of credit for this. If this were a Michael Moore film about Cheney, far fewer would go see it. But by making it audaciously weird in form, and with such an extraordinary recreation by Bale of Cheney's physical presence, McKay will be drawing a lot more people into see a much-needed history lesson.

On a lighter note, the new Mary Poppins film is quite excellent. I mean that sincerely. I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it.

Fred Clem

Mike,

Walter Brennan as the title character in "The Guns of Will Sonnett" frequently used the phrase "No brag, just fact".  In ran for a few years in the late 60's.  My dad particularly liked the show.

Fred

Michael McLeod

Mark: I want very much to see Vice and will opine if I do. Very interested, as you could tell by the Hamilton piece, in the nexus of politics and art.

Fred: You are correct..

Needless to say I'm quite disappointed with the rest of you.

But truth is, Fred, your memory is actually better than mine. I thought the quote was from another tv show Water Brennan was in: "The Real McCoys." I suppose it's possible he used the line in that show but it was definitely that other show -- which I had forgotten about but obviously must have watched -- that established it as his trademark.  

Interestingly, part of his appeal -- his thin, reedy voice -- was the result of being exposed to mustard gas in World War One. He died of emphysyma - don't hold me to that spelling - which, I'd guess, also had something to do with his WWI exposure to the gas. 

And do you remember the song he did -- "One of these days, I'm gonna climb that mountain/Walk up there among them clouds/ where the cotton's high, and (I forget the rest)/and there ain't no fields to plow." 

I have to say how interesting it is to write about a time period that I almost have to put out of my mind when writing for a general audience. I could not make an allusion, for example, to Walter Brennan without stopping to explain who he was to the bulk of readers who weren't curled up in their pj's as kids watching him on the tube.

Fred Clem

Mike,

I always assumed that Walter Brennan was from the South and probably a "WASP" based on the characters he played and his speech.  However he was a devout Roman Catholic from Lynn, MA (a north suburb of Boston).

He was the first person to win 3 Academy Awards for acting, all for Best Supporting Actor.  He wouldn't fit into the Hollywood scene today as he also was a staunch conservative Republican.

Here's a link to a clip from "The Guns of Will Sonnett" : 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9j1qkorFszY

The song was "Old Rivers":  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmbcaQFOK78

Mark Schweickart

Fred -- thanks for the youtube links. While there I noticed another related one, a charming little homemade video done by the 15 year old  grandaughter of the song's author, Cliff Crofford.

James Hamilton, M. D.

David Mitchell

Wow Mark,

I have been biting my tonge about "Vice" myself. Having hogged the Forum again, I decideed to be quiet for a day or so  - and also trying to stay clear of politics.

But this is a strange thing to me that this is being called a "comedy".

Comedy?

I do not recall a single moment of humor in the entire picture.

The makeup job on Bale is perhaps even more astounding than last year's "Darkest Hour", in which Gary Oldham was transformed (after three and half hours in the makeup chair each day) into Churchill - and I mean perfectly!

To think that the little British choir boy in the Japanese prison camp in Spielberg's "Empire of the Sun" (I took my kids) could become an absolute clone of Devious Dick is astounding. Even the voice! 

Not since "Darkest Hour" or "LIncoln" (with Daniel Day-Lewis) had I been so transfixed that I kept forgetting this was really just and actor.

But like yourself, I too grew angrier and angrier as the film progessed, recalling all those lies and manipulations of his authority behind the Country's (and young Bush's) back.

How does one say the film was incredibly well made, but at the same time, that I hated it?

I saw Green Book twice, Mary Queen of Scotts twice (loved both) but only needed one viewing of Vice to say "enough". I actually left the theater angry.

Friends say Mary Poppins is reallly THAT good - maybe I'll break down and go. 

...that mule, Old Rivers, and me.

David Mitchell

Okay, while we are on the subject.

,,,,,uhh what were we talking about? It couldn't have been all that important.

David Mitchell

Now what was it that I was pontificating about?

"Some people think entirely too much....of that I am sure."

Oh yea, a movie.

About 55 years ago I "invested" tuppence in the "Dawes, Jones, Mousely, Grubbs, Fidelity Fiduciary Bank".

Tonight I received the most enjoyable dividend. 

(With a couple of extra fun surprises to boot)

Thanks Dick and Angela

Jeanine Eilers (Decker)

Dave—Greetings from Cambodia.  Feeling still run strong here about the was and the role Cambodia’s neighbors played.  We will have to talk about all this at some point.   BTW,  Lance’s service was all stateside but it was our generation’s war so emotions are high no matter where you were.  Interesting experience to be here.

David Mitchell

Jeanine,

I'd be curious to know if you traveled down the Mekong (the eastern most split) anywhere near the border of Vietnam? You probably didn't get that far south. Not much to see down there.

I know the odds are slim, but if so, might you have passed a brownish, brick or stucco French convent or school on the eastern bank of the river just about a mile inside Cambodia? It might have had a low, walled, garden cemetery between the Convent buildings and the river bank. Just wondering? 

-------

I imagine very diffrent feelings there after Vietnam's own "Vietnam" followed by the nightmare reign of Pol Pot and his "killing fields". 

John Maxwell

Michael McLeod

Doc: thanks for the medical & literary assist. You're a renaissance man. Not absolutely sure of that spelling, either.

Jack:If Donald Trump declares the damage we are doing to our planet as a national emergency rather than the threat of those terrible brown skinned people to the south, I'll back him all the way. 

Dave: Empire of the Sun is one of my favorite films.

David Mitchell

Mike,

How interesting. I think "Empire of the Sun" slipped by the vast majority of movie goers back then but I enjoyed it and my two oldest did too. They were about 14 and 15 at the time. I still go back and play a few scenes on You Tube. I find a couple of those scenes quite moving - the music score is quite good.

That scene where young Bale sings "Suo Gan" to the Japanese pilots, and then runs up on the rooftop where he watches the American P-51's come sweeping in over the prison camp. He realizes the end of the war is near since these are the first American pilots to reach this far. I still get shivers. 

And of course that early scene of him singing "Suo Gan" in church with the rest of the choir boys.

Suo Gan is an old Welsh hymn (I believe about the Blessed Mother) beginning with the words

"Sleep my baby, at my breast,

'Tis a Mothers arms around you...."

ahh what the heck,,,here's one of the clips (and yes, that's John Malkovich in the dark glasses)

(note: the young boy isn't sympathizing with his Japanese captors, he's just enamored with the pilots.)

David Mitchell

p.s. I don't think there was ever a plane more beautiful than the P-51 Mustang !

( I knew a young kid once upon a time who shared "Bale's" fascination with airplanes )

Michael McLeod

Ok Dave now you've got me thinking about the element that helps to make that such a good film -- which is the point of view. War as seen through the eyes of a child. How hard he struggles to bear up, to join the club, to be an equal in the adult world he's been flung into. And then the scene -- I think it may be at the end of the clip you just posted -- when the masquerade comes to an abrupt halt, and he dissolves into tears,  and says: "I can't remember what my parents look like."

Michael McLeod

Reposting this. Found it on Facebook. Sorrry cowpokes. There's an end to every trail. That includes the happy ones. 

HAPPY TRAILS TO YOU -- THE END OF AN ERA 
The young guns may not understand the meaning of this, but you will. The Roy Rogers Museum in Branson, MO has closed its doors forever. The contents of the museum were sold at a public auction. Roy Rogers told his son, if the museum ever operates at a loss, close it, and sell the contents. He complied. Note the follow-on article truly the end of an era.

David Mitchell

Ohhh Pancho! 

Ohhhhh Cisco!

--------------------------

Mike,

I remember driving my oldest daughter from Columbus to L.A. years ago - with stops along the way at friends in Denver and Telluride. As we were coming down out of the mountains east of L.A. there was a town - I think maybe Vacaville? (a little birdie tells me this is the wrong town - maybe Victorville?) - where there was the original Roy Rodgers Museum. Word had it that Roy still hung out there occasionlly and greeted vistors. I wanted so badly to stop, but we were behind schedule since I had made her bear with me while I drove us up into Monument Valley, a detour of several hours.

I went to my first Ohio State Fair with my dad (who had grown up sneaking into the Fair every year - he lived only blocks away) when I was about 5 and Roy and Dale and the Sons of the Pioneers (yes, with Pat Brady) were the featured show at the grandstand. Tickets were sold out. I was crushed. But we stood and watched part of the show trhough a small break in the grandstand, and as they left the stage and rode out to the dressing room on Trigger and Buttermilk, they came by, waving to the crowd. They were easily 100 feet away and the opening was only about 8 inches, but I told Dad I was sure Roy had seen me and was waving at me.

Dad bought me two signed 8x10 photos of Roy. I kept them for years and threw them out only about 20 years ago.What was I thinkin'? 

Roy was born Leonard Slye in 1911 in Cincinnati and grew up near Lucasville. I think it was just Duck Run Road but he claimed he was from a "place" called Duck Run. 

Frank Ganley

Dave, one of my great friends grew up in Buffalo and was neighbors with a doctor who served in VietNam. He jumped inand out of copters tending to our boys. Did you ever encounter a Doctor Corneilous O’Conner .

Jeanine Eilers (Decker)

Schweikart, Buttress and McKeon all on the same day!?!?  The stars must have been uniquely aligned.  Happy birthday, guys!

David Mitchell

Jeanine,

Hear! hear! I second that for all these birthdays.

David Mitchell

Frank,

I did not know him. He would probably have been part of a "Medivac" team - you recall, those Hueys with the red cross on the nose and sides - and argueably the bravest guys in all of Vietnam. They would go just about anywhere, under just about any circumstances. I had two experiences with them - one went so well it was even a bit humorous. The other was one of those times when things went horribly wrong. They always had medics on board, but only rarely doctors. The risk was too great. 

We actually did our own "medivacs" quite simply because we could, and because we sort of had to. I mean, there we were - when one of us got shot down, another of us went in and got 'em. It was a fairly common experience due to the nature of our tactics. 

Other than one really popular Medical Doctor at our base in Vinh Long (with his own clinic and office), I only encountered a Doctor (and lots of nurses) a few times in a couple incidences at a nearby large "Field Evac" hospital (Binh Tuey Field Evac in Can Tho - the "capital" of the Delta).

Once was when I was airlifted there with a serious case of "shigella dysintery". It hit me first, and It then went through our entire squadron - and only our squadron - which led my Dad to conclude it was unclean dish water in our Squadron mess hall kitchen. He actually called the hospital doctor on something called a "MARS" Station Ham Radio/Phone relay call to ask the Doctor about the circumstances. No one else on the entire airfield (with their separate mess halls) ever got it. My commanding officer at the time (Major Bill Rittenhouse - a terriffic guy) got it in the air while flying a mission and had only a moment to tell his co-pilot "You got it" (take the controls), before yanking off his helmet and filling it with his vomit. Then followed extreme diahrea. The real danger was dehydration. Dad said when he was a younger man in Med School (at OSU in the early 30's) it was often fatal. 

And wow, was it ever nasty. I got fed interveniously for three days and got down to 132 pounds. But the nurses were great!

One of my other two incidences with Doctors is a bit off limits for this Forum. Maybe one would be okay for a later story. And I do have a fun "Doctor story" for later too - about one of my Dad's Civilian Medical (6-week tours) to Vietnam.

How was that for a short answer Frank?