Message Forum

MM, there is absolutely no dispute that Hamas uses civilians as shields. But does that give Israel the right to kill 20 civilians for every Israeli lost on Oct. 7 (with no end in sight)?

And the Hamas statement "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it…” is a pathetic boast. Israel may suffer terrible atrocities from time to time (like it did on October 7) but it is so much stronger than its enemies (as evidenced by its ability to work its will on Gaza) that there isn’t the slightest chance that it will be overrun.

The Israelis keep saying that they want to make sure this never happens again. But the near-indiscriminate mayhem they are raining down on Gaza ensures that something very much like Hamas will rise from the ashes and its only goal will be to seek revenge. Gaza is so utterly devastated that this won’t happen soon, but it WILL happen.

03/02/24 08:48 AM

#13642

https://www.prageru.com/video/the-middle-east-problem?utm_source=app&utm_medium=share I thought you'd like this video from PragerU.

I realize I am breaking my own promise to refrain from responding to political commentary on this message forum, however in view of Dave & John's recent posts, I feel compelled to offer some factual information on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. One can choose to view the two videos or not...I am simply linking to them as food for thought.

https://dev.prageru.com/video/an-arab-muslim-in-the-israeli-army

03/02/24 10:22 AM

#13643

MM, the first link is not remotely credible – it's a simplistic, sanitized and one-sided version of Israel’s founding and its history since then. I support Israel’s right to exist but both sides have behaved very badly at times and there is more than enough blame to go around.

Israel lost 1200 innocent people (some of them Israeli peace activists working to help Palestinians) on Oct. 7th. Those deaths have now been avenged at a ratio of twenty to one (and counting). Israel is still very much in control and holds all the cards. There is not the slightest danger that it will be overrun by its neighbors. Sometimes, when you so completely hold the upper hand, it’s worth trying to show a bit of generosity to break the cycle of revenge.

And the second link is totally anecdotal. The guy is entitled to his opinion, but are we really to assume that his views are representative (or even that his telling of the facts is accurate)?

I’ve been on the soapbox three of the last four days, so it’s time for me to shut up for a while.

03/02/24 12:45 PM

#13644

https://www.memri.org/reports/plo-sponsored-summer-camps-palestinian-authority-glorification-terrorists-palestine-river

Facts don't always have to be all that complicated, John. Interesting that you did not respond to the fact that for years Israel has presented Hamas, the PLO and PLA with a two state solution, but they don't want a two state solution as it is in Hamas' charter that they seek only for Israel to cease to exist. How should any free nation react to that stated goal?

One more fact: It has been well documented that Israel has gone above and beyond to prevent civilian casualties, such as delaying ground operations, creating corridors for civilians to flee where there is expected to be fierce fighting. Furthermore, Israel has dropped millions of flyers and sent SMS messages and phone calls to Gazans, urging them to flee. Israel sent in ground troops (putting their own lives at risk) rather than simply carpet bombing Gaza. They have allowed humanitarian aid into Gaza, something unprecedented in war, to provide fuel, food, and resources knowing that Hamas will not only benefit but steal these all from the Gazan civilians for which the aid is intended. It should also be noted that the Palestinian Arabs overwhelmingly support Hamas which is a direct result of the indoctrination of Palestinian children, which I personally have viewed on Arab TV, whose classroom "education" instills a culture of hate, violence and dehumanization of Israelis and Jews. If there is a parallel situation in Israeli schools, please share the information.

03/03/24 09:36 AM

#13645

MM, I promised to shut up, so I won't respond in detail other than to say that your summary of the situation in Gaza is the sanitized story the Israelis tell and not a single government (including the U.S.) buys it – if Israel has been so careful, why have 30,000 people been killed? The older I get the more I become convinced that in so many situations, the truth is often/usually complicated. If this problem was black and white (as you seem to think it is), it would have been resolved long ago.

03/03/24 01:11 PM

#13646

Joseph D. McCarthy

Christianity is the strangest religion ever set up, for it committed a murder upon Jesus in order to redeem mankind from the sin of eating an apple. Thomas Paine, 1737 - 1809, English-American writer

03/03/24 01:24 PM

#13647

https://www.learnreligions.com/top-thomas-paine-quotes-on-religion-4072775

John, I would love for you to go into more detail, specifically to address the points made about the singular goal of Hamas and the indoctrination of the Gazan children to hate all Jews and Israeli's. So please continue either on this forum, on the User Forum, in a private message or in an email.

Joe, it is important to note that Thomas Payne was a deist who had a complete disdain for all religions as well as the Bible.

03/03/24 09:30 PM

#13648

Mary Margaret,

I find your use of the term "naiviete" back in your post #13640 to be very intriguing.

03/04/24 09:35 AM

#13649

wow.

what a testy gang we are today.

Popped over here after reading the incredibly well written and illustrated story in the ny times about how well developed nuclear arms are and what their usage would look like if it comes to that. And we as a species are closer than ever to the prospect. Congratulation, species! You're the first one on earth to have found a way to obliterate yourself!

They'll be detonated from high overhead, the bombs, when they come, and they will set the very air ablaze for hundreds of miles around. Yeah they've got it down to a science.

came here for cheer but no dice.

luckily I have a couple of more life affirming chores on my teaching and writing agenda for the day.

and a backyard in bloom -- bougainvillia bushes with vivid flowers in purple and crimson behind the pool. Actually, technically, they aren't flowers, they are leaves that turn color and the hues are so bright I'm surprised they don't illuminate the yard when the sun goes down.

My wonderful life partner/montessori teacher will be here for dinner later. She's the real gift. I wish everybody could meet her. And I wish I could fix the world at large but somehow, for all my foolishness, when it comes to the close at hand I've wound up in paradise. I'll just have to settle for that and I hope you have a measure of it too.

And on top of everything else -- I swear this is an enchanted day -- I was going through some old papers, and I found a small, scrap of paper about the size of a business card, and on the back of it, in my mother's hand, this had been written:

"Just a closer walk with thee."

And I swear to you, that beautiful phrase had been banging around in my head for days. Though my usual inclinations lie elsewhere, it's a bit more difficult than usual to see it as a mere coincidence.

Take a look around and find something to celebrate. I've laid off of trying to understand it all so I'll just have to enjoy the beauty and the mystery and the long-distance message close at hand. It's almost an act of defiance given the dangers and animosity that seem to loom everywhere else.

And it's alway good to cheerfully take note of how close to that walk we all are, one way or another -- eh?

03/04/24 04:27 PM

#13650

MM, I’m well aware that the destruction of Israel is Hamas’ stated goal and I don’t doubt that they mean it. But does Hamas’ stated goal justify the killing of 20 Palestinians civilians (not Hamas fighters) for every Israeli killed on Oct. 7? If you say yes, then what’s an acceptable threshold - 50, 100, 200? Or does Israel have a right to kill them all if that’s what it takes to get the Oct. 7 perpetrators?

And you are the one who is naïve if you take at face value the statements of the Israeli government that they are going out of their way to protect civilians – of course they have to say that. But if the Israelis are taking all these extraordinary measures, why have 30,000 been killed? Not a single country in the world (including our own) has taken the position that the level of civilian casualties is acceptable. And have you seen the scorched earth landscapes after Israeli bombing of Gazan cities – the BBC estimates that more than 50% of buildings throughout the territory have been severely damaged or destroyed.

The idea that Israel has allowed in significant amounts of food or humanitarian aid is fantasy. Here’s a quote from a Washington Post article (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/03/gaza-aid-convoy-israel-war/ ) entitled “How Israel’s restrictions on aid put Gaza on the brink of famine”:

“The Gaza strip… is hurtling toward a famine that humanitarian officials say is largely of Israel’s making. They point to Israel’s limiting of land entry points for aid; an onerous and confusing Israeli inspection process; faulty deconfliction channels between aid groups and Israel’s military; Israeli efforts to undermine the United Nations; and its military’s recent targeting of Gazan police who once protected aid missions.”

The Israelis say they don’t want food aid going to Hamas fighters. That’s perfectly understandable but are they prepared to starve the entire population to accomplish this goal?

I’m also well aware that various Palestinian factions (including Hamas) have opposed a two-state solution, on the grounds that before 1948 the Palestinians controlled virtually all of what is now Israel. While there is a certain logic to that position, I think that’s unfortunate because half a loaf is better than none (and the most the Palestinians are likely to get) considering Israel holds all the cards. But over the years Israel’s support for a two state solution has been tepid at best and Netanyahu, more than any other Israeli prime minister, is unalterably opposed to it.

Finally, it’s beyond unfortunate if Palestinian kids are indoctrinated to hate Israelis. But does this give the Israelis the right to be callous about the lives of these kids?

MM, you seem to have an overly rosy understanding of what happened at Israel's founding in 1948. After WWII, Palestinians (Muslim and Christian) were in possession of virtually all the land that is currently Israel. A few years later 700,000 Palestinians had fled their homes for refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Gaza, (where they and their descendants live today). Do you think this process was peaceful? Do you think that Jews from Europe who flocked to Israel at that time, most of them destitute after having survived the Holocaust, compensated the Palestinians for their land and homes?

But rather than taking my word for it, I recommend you read this Wikipedia article entitled “1948 Palestinian Expulsion and Flight” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_expulsion_and_flight. Here’s the first paragraph:

In 1948, more than 700,000 Palestinian Arabs – about half of prewar Mandatory Palestine's Arab population – fled from their homes or were expelled by Zionist militias and, later, the Israeli army^{[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8]} during the 1948 Palestine war,^[9] following the Partition Plan for Palestine. The expulsion and flight was a central component of the fracturing, dispossession, and displacement of Palestinian society, known as the Nakba.^[10][11] Dozens of massacres were conducted by Israeli military forces and between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were destroyed. Village wells were poisoned in a biological warfare programme and properties were looted to prevent Palestinian refugees from returning.^[12][13] Other sites were subject to Hebraization of Palestinian place names.^[14] These activities were not necessarily limited to the year 1948.^[15]

03/05/24 11:11 AM

#13651

yikes. i think facebook is down. luckily I can stop by here for the warm glow of classmate camaraderie.

Spent the evening at an event at the Morse Museum in Winter Park, which is home to the world's most beautiful and extensive collection of Tiffany stained glass and other architectural elements. They have a little gathering each time the museum adds another architectural treasure from that long lost, elegant time and place.

I've written several stories about the museum, which is just a 15 minute drive from where I live and just down the street from the college where I teach.

The collection and the museum wound up down here because a wealthy couple who believed in Tiffany during a time when his creations were considered dated and too showy began collecting architectural elements and stained glass windows from his dilapidated long island mansion.

Another time, another place, and just such earthy elegance that Tiffany created in his mansion up north

I'm very sentimental about that era and I've tried to make my own little hovel reflect that with the garden and antiques and what little stained glass I can afford.

Anyway I'd suggest the museum, and the main street of Winter Park, with its charming shops and restaurants, as a lovely place to visit if you are ever in central florida.

03/05/24 02:01 PM

#13652

Dave:

"Rocker Watches Soccer" is a great headline.

That's the kind of headline that when you come up with it everybody in the newsroom kinda snickers and teases you about it and it's kinda one of those little things that makes your day and makes you happy you wound up in journalism. There are big things now and then but the little things are like the coffee you keep drinking. They pep you up along the way.

03/06/24 12:25 PM

#13653

Getting back to John because I am compelled to address some of his assertions.

First of all, there can be no proportionality in a war, which is why war is to be avoided. To make the case for such "proportionality" is devoid of the purpose for engaging in any war, which is to come out as the victor. What continually gets lost in this discussion is that Hamas for years has been sending in missiles targeting Israeli civilian populations, but their missiles are crude and fall short of their targets. So Israel had not taken any military counter measures....that is, up until the inhumane and unprovoked attack on INNOCENT civilians.....the horrific rapes, placing babies in microwaves, sticking weapons into women's private parts, killing parents in front of their children, kidnapping and holding hostages, may of who remain captive. THIS is who Hamas is.... they have conditioned the Palestinians living in Gaza to hate all Jews and Israel. When school children are taught how to use weapons to kill their stated enemy, what does any reasonable person believe will happen? Furthermore, as I stated previously, it is Hamas, the governing body of Gaza, who has such complete disregard for human life, including their own citizens. For 16 years, Hamas has been ruling the Gaza Strip with an iron fist, but has not dug and built any bomb shelters for the Palestinian civilians. Those killed in Gaza most of whom were women and children – could have been safe in bomb shelters. But Hamas chose instead to dig tunnels and built an underground city, for its weapons, ammunitions, and its means of killing and destruction, but did not build bomb shelters for the living. Why? Because life is cheap to them. This is a terrorist organization, like all terrorists, that does not take into any consideration whatsoever the lives of people or the future of the Palestinians,

Therefore, Israel is faced with the choice to leave Hamas’s massive underground infrastructure intact or to bomb a hospital. The fact that the war crime is Hamas’s, for using civilians as shields, is irrelevant. For the world, it will be enough that there is civilian blood and that Israel’s bombs were the last link in the chain that killed them.

On another point, it is not a "fantasy" that Israel has been attempting to send in humanitarian aid. The fact is that Israel begged Gaza’s citizens for two weeks to leave Gaza before it began its bombardment. Instead, we got news that Hamas fighters were preventing people from leaving and that they are denying resources to those who stayed (voluntarily or not). That’s because, to Hamas, every person living in Gaza is a soldier in the jihad against Israel and the West. Some serve by fighting; others serve simply by dying.

Furthermore, I have no "rosy" understanding of the conflicts between Israel and Palestine. I have the facts, and while mistakes have been made at times by Israelis, the very fact that for decades now, the Arabs have waged an economic, diplomatic and propaganda campaign whose object is to isolate Israel and shrink her to indefensible size and configuration. A key element of this strategy was the refusal to absorb Arab refugees into Arab countries to perpetuate the meme of the homeless, beleaguered Palestinian people. https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2011/01/the_occupied_territories_revis_1.html

One final point, I long ago ceased to rely on the legacy media sources who are controlled by a mere six corporations. They have sold their collective souls to a globalist agenda as evidenced by the four years of Russian collusion and Hunter laptop denial, followed by the lie upon lie of the Covid restrictions and mandates forced upon the world for over two years and counting. I have learned over many years, when the MSM reports, I do my own homework.

03/06/24 03:10 PM

#13654

"Hunter laptop denial" and "Lie upon lie of the Covid restrictions".

Huh? Not sute what they have to do with Gaza, but I'm sure Mr. Comer willl explain it somehow.

But I would be interested in hearing what explanation you would offer of the several hundred thousand Palestiniians (many Catholics) who were were driven from their traditional homeland in the West Bank by the Israeli governements, beginning with the "Nakba" of 1948 - when Israel destroyed some 530 Palestinian villages, foribly displacing 750,000 Palestinians, and killing approx 15,000 Palestinians, (including many Palestinian Catholics). The damage in those episodes includes mulltiple rapes and numerous Palestinian bodies thrown down wells.

To the dismay of most Western nations, Israel has continuoulsy forced Palestinians out of their homes and taken their property without compensation. It continues today.

Does this mean I side with or condone Hamas - ABSOSLUTELY NOT!

As I said at the outset of this conflict, Both sides are wrong - Both sides will lose.

I just think proportionality has some bearing on this slaughter.

03/06/24 06:45 PM

#13655

Dave, to clarify, I was referring to John's citations from the Washington Post, the BBC and Wikipedia who are known for their own progressive biases.They are just a small portion of the legacy media, here and abroad, who have promoted, as irrefutable facts, innumerable lies regarding Trump, Hunter, Covid.....to name only a very few Furthermore, I would never be so wide-eyed as to rely on any Palestinian narrative as they are governed by the PLO. PLA and Hamas

03/07/24 09:14 AM

#13656

MM, I’ve argued that political/serious topics have an occasional place on this Forum as long as they don’t dominate. A few days ago I promised to pipe down and since I’ve had a couple more posts than you on this topic I’ll leave it to our classmates to decide for themselves about the reliability of our information sources (and let you have the last word).

03/07/24 09:49 AM

#13657

Continue reading the main story

Well, as long as this message board is going through an argumentative phase -- or coming to the end of it, thank you -- here is a story written by one of the most powerful (and award-winning) figures among those terrible progressive journalists around the globe who all plot together and think alike. Specifically it's from a longtime editor at the new york times, which is running a series about a real global danger.

As for the argumentative faction of the class, which I absolutely enjoy in its place, one general suggestion I have is that we could have a "season" for debate over here on this side.Maybe a couple months over the summer, something like that. And most importantly, encourage everyone, not just the bigmouths like myself, to take part. I'm sure people have opinions - which, as the saying goes, and I must delicately paraphrase here, are as common to the species as our individual rectal sphincters - but I suspect they are hesitant to join in given how combative the back and forth tends to become. it would be nice to see the debates become more inclusive.

You may say I'm a dreamer.

Anway see below for one subject I'd hope we'd all agree on. It's from an ongoing nytimes series, one that won't surprise me if it wins a Pulitzer.

By Kathleen Kingsbury

Opinion Editor

A large majority of Americans say they don’t trust a government run by the opposition party. So we must ask ourselves: Is it moral, just and wise to vest the ability to end other nations in the hands of one person?

“As president, I carried no wallet, no money, no driver’s license, no keys in my pockets — only secret codes that were capable of bringing about the annihilation of much of the world as we knew it,” Ronald Reagan wrote in his autobiography.

That’s right. President Biden this very minute could unilaterally decide to launch a devastating nuclear strike anywhere in the world in minutes — without a requirement to consult Congress or the courts. The missiles would be in flight before even the most plugged-in Americans knew they’d been launched.

This is an enormous amount of power to grant any single person. That’s doubly true in undemocratic nations, several of which have nuclear arsenals of their own.

It is time to explore what alternatives to the president’s sole nuclear authority could be, and that’s what my colleague W.J. Hennigan does in the latest installment of our series “At the Brink,” published this morning.

Mr. Hennigan offers readers a rare look into the U.S. Strategic Command, which operates a global system to ensure that, if a president orders the launch of a nuclear weapon, it will happen in minutes. Along with his compelling reporting and writing, the celebrated photographer An-My Lê captures the men, women and spaces that make up this military operation.

Last year, Senator Ed Markey of Massachusetts and Representative Ted Lieu of California introduced legislation that would prevent any American president from launching a first nuclear strike without congressional approval. Passing this bill or one like it is an obvious step.

Yet the American public is owed a bigger plan on how countries around the globe can work together to reduce nuclear threats. Today nuclear weapons loom over international politics in ways not seen since the Cold War — a dynamic Times Opinion explored in the first installment of the series earlier this week.

The phrase “serious debate” is often tossed around in campaign season. It’s a way to insist on talking about something, even if in a nebulous way. Fortunately, there are chances for a substantive public discussion of nuclear weapons, and we invite the country and the world to join in the conversation. Americans might be surprised to hear what those in other nations think.

Times Opinion has invited President Biden and President Trump to explain in our pages what their next administrations would do to reduce these risks. We hope they will do so. We also hope this will be a subject in the upcoming presidential debates. Reporters covering the president and his competitor should press them on their policies and thinking around sole authority and other nuclear policies.

Though Mr. Trump and Mr. Biden “will have to confront questions from voters about their mental acuity, competence and stamina to take on another four-year term,” as Mr. Hennigan writes today, “regardless of who wins this election or the next one, the American president’s nuclear sole authority is a product of another era, and must be revisited in our new nuclear age.”

That should be something that most Americans can agree on.

03/07/24 10:52 AM

#13658

You will all be happy to note, that I have expressed my final thoughts on the Israeli/Palestinian issue, so have no fear, I will exit the political commentary for now.

03/07/24 01:18 PM

#13659

Good thing nobody has raised the topic of Russell Wilson and the Broncos. Things could get really heated in here.

03/07/24 01:34 PM

#13660

yeah dave. you just go ahead and throw another rock at that hornet nest.

03/09/24 12:23 AM

#13661

The Big "C"

We grew up with a source of music that we played so often we could hardly escape the fun it brought us - and the annoyance it must have caused our parents.

WCOL was our source of Rock, R&B, Country, Doo-Wop, and the occasional Pop balads - from the Diamonds, and Danny and the Juniors, Del Shannon, the Drifters, 4 Tops, to Martha and the Vandellas, the Shirelles, Connie Francis, Brenda Lee, and of course Elvis.

But somewhere around 1958 (ish), something came along that was completely new and different. My oldest sister came home from her first semester of college at St. Marys college, in South Bend (down the road from then all male Notre Dame Univesrsity). She brought with her an album of music the likes of which I had never heard and I was forever changed. She got it from her classmates in College, and Wow, I never got over it!

These three white guys in matching striped shirts became my introduction to something I have enjoyed for a life time.

03/09/24 01:02 AM

#13662