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09/24/20 01:00 PM #8133    


John Jackson

MM, neither you nor I have enough independent knowledge of the situation surrounding voter fraud to assess the accuracy of these claims and counter-claims.   For me, it’s enough that the overwhelming majority of those with the interest, time, and resources to study this topic in depth over the years have concluded that voter fraud is a non-issue (and articles in NYT, The Atlantic, etc. cite these studies).

I’d put climate change in the same category – the overwhelming majority of knowledgeable climate experts, in this country and around the world, are convinced human-caused climate change is happening and, if anything, their predictions have been on the conservative side.  And you know the battle is over when even the major fossil fuel companies have thrown in the towel and admitted that climate change is real.  Here’s what Exxon says (and all the other majors say similar things on their websites):


09/24/20 10:37 PM #8134    


David Mitchell

Some insteresting voices in the last few days speaking warnings against th Donald without even touching on the mail in issue.  

Of the 489 former Generals, Admirals and white House Security officials (both Democrat and Republican), who signed the letter being referrd to as  "World On fire", this quote caught my attention;


Retired Air Force Gen. Charles G. Boyd, who signed the new letter, recorded a video for the group’s Twitter account.

“I spent 36 years in the United States Air Force, almost seven of those as a prisoner of war in Vietnam,” he said in the video. “Since my return, I’ve been a Republican, but quietly.”

“I fervently believe that military officers should not be involved in presidential politics, even when retired,” said Boyd, who is the only former POW to have reached four-star rank, and served as deputy commander of the U.S. European Command. “But this year is different. Donald Trump’s assault on the rule of law that makes a democracy possible has been so egregious I’ve decided to speak out. . . . We need to vote for Joe Biden this year. I’m going to vote for him. I hope you do, too.”


And just days ago brought us the release of former General McMaster's new book "Battlegrounds" in which he cites many warnings about Trumps performance - especially his love of our arch-enemies and his distain for our allies. (and I think he gains credibiity by NOT going into the internecine intrigue of the White House 

I jumped on one of my most concerning issues - one which has almost slid past the general public, overshadowed by all the other stuff in the headlines. General McMaster criticises our decison to negotiate with the Taliban in Afghanistan.

I could not agree more!!!!

And I would rate this decision even higher on the list of inane stupiity than the tax cut (which raised out national debt by about ONE TRILLION DOLLARS - before the recent Covid Bail out - for which I can perfectly well unerstand and grant a degree of acceptance). If not for all the Covid virus and all the racial upheaval, I suspect this item alone would be sparking heated debate. But it will probably slip by unchallenegd and set a new norm for idiotic, cowardly statesmanship.      

And please note: this list of names is bi-partisan, including many names who are NOT a bunch of Left-Wing Liberals. 

09/24/20 10:38 PM #8135    


David Mitchell

Speaking of voiting by mail, here are a few facts of note.

  • President Trump is accelerating his crusade against states' efforts to expand absentee and mail-in voting, including inflating claims of fraud and spreading baseless theories about ballots being stolen
  • But Trump himself and over 20 members of his family, administration, campaign team, and other top officials in his orbit have voted or tried to vote by mail in recent years. 
  • Most recently, Insider reported that Vice President Mike Pence and Second Lady Karen Pence voted absentee this spring in Indiana while registered at an address they haven't lived at for almost four years.

09/24/20 11:06 PM #8136    


David Mitchell

Speaking of climate change, I dare anyone to try and argue that it's a myth with officials and and property owners of Norffolk, Virginia.

Question: Does the city keep protecting those waterfront neighborhoods? Or let them give up and decide to move out? No winners in this contest. Hard to get to work when your street floods - every day.

Or how 'bout the Property and Causalty Insurance companies who insure buildings from Miami Beach to New York City. Remember, most of those older high rise buildings have their electrical systems in the basements. Nervous about their coverage - you bet. But they don't discuss it very often in public. Some efforts to re-locate the equipment to higher floors - - expensive, you betta beleive it!

Boy howdie - could git jist a might messy!


09/25/20 08:56 AM #8137    


Michael McLeod

MM brings up a critical point. Considering your sources is absolutely critical in any debate these days. It is no overstatement to say that we live in a "post-truth world."

I've been researching that subject for a while and will write something about it soon. 


09/25/20 10:11 AM #8138    


John Jackson

I agree that sources are very important.  But just because you can find a “source” for your views doesn’t prove their validity - some sources have much better and longer track records at getting it right than others.  And the better sources often include opposing views/quotes in their reporting and their organizations use fact checkers and editors whose job it is to keep the reporting from getting out of line.

Also not sure what a “post-truth world” means.  There are some questions where the answer definitely lies in the eye of the beholder (what’s the best movie, should we have another pandemic stimulus package or not?) and other questions that can be answered with certainty (how many legs does an insect have, do American importers/consumers or Chinese exporters pay American import duties?).


09/25/20 11:48 AM #8139    


Michael McLeod

John. Here's what I mean.

The world we live in is far more advanced and confusing that ever. It's quite difficult for the average person to keep up with the progress in science and technolology -- but very easy for that person to access information via the Internet, where anyone can present any information they want to dish out. The crazy loon at the corner is on an equal footing, in a sense, with the most brilliant minds the world has to offer. That -- along with the power of monied interest and the flat-earth quackery of misled but fervent extremists -- makes for the craziest informational stew humanity has ever concocted.

There used to be an expression: Never pick a fight with somebody who buys ink by the barrel. It meant that newspapers - back when all there was to put words on was paper - were the chief purveyors of information relevant to the country at large, and so you didn't want to mess with them. Was that bad or good? Well, it was both. Were the newspapers sometimes slanted and did they favor the opinions of their owners? Hell yes. See Citizen Kane. But they did have a systemized template to separate opinion from fact.  I was trained in the long ago to write objective stories and keep my opinion at bay -- and question vigorously and keep my facts straight.  Another old newspaper saying reporters heard from grizzled editors about double-checking and being accurate: "If your mother tells you she loves you, check it out." 

So newspapers were relatively objective, or at least parts of them were designed to function that way. You could bitch about them but you trusted them, and whether or not you knew it they were key to keeping an electorate educated. (And no, MM, they are not irrefutable -- but they tend not to have the obvious axes to grind that the people they are writing about do. And they are still trained in much the same way I was, including presenting both sides of a story. The voter fraud guy that you mentioned, for example, was quoted in the story I also quoted from, above. )

The economics of print news are gone, and with it the credibility of that system of keeping some semblance of truthful discourse in place. (Trump's genius is understanding that new weakness in our democracy - the absence of a respected and well-established fourth estate - and getting points with his fans by being beligerant with reporters, even notoriously mocking one with a disability, and dismissing any negative reports about him as "fake news"). But even more importantly, now anybody can call themselves a news site - and they don't have to buy ink by the barrel or play but the rules. It's as if there are no longer doctor's licenses or offices, and anybody with an interest in medicine can hang up a sign and offer to cure your ills. Some of them might be excellent at doing that. Some will be quacks. And here's the point of that metaphor: It would be damn hard to tell one from the other. 

Similarly, on this information highway: caveat emptor, because baby you are on your own. Lies are on an equal footing with the truth.  (Next time around I'll write about how you can tell one from the other on the interwebs and elsewhere. )

Strictly speaking, there really is no such thing as post-truth world and there never was and never will be. The truth isn't going anywhere. It's just more easily counterfeited than ever.

09/25/20 03:18 PM #8140    


Mark Schweickart

Happy Birthday 'Glid!

Just a poke at Mike's last name pronunciation. I think he is pronouncing it "McCloud" now, but he was always "McClid" back in our day, or as indicated above, sometimes shortened to 'Glid.

Anyone else have this wandering name pronunciation problem? I know I have had this with my name. When growing up, my father pronounced it as "Swikert". When I worked at a factory during college years, there was a German fellow working there who loved to shout my name when he saw me enter the lunchroom, and I would hear "Schv-eye-kart" boomed out, with an emphasis on the "V"  rather than "W" sound. He also stressed the  'Shh" sound at the front and the end was definitely "Kart" not "Kurt." So in my adult days I began following his instructions, but without the "V" sound. That seemed too affected for a 'Murican" accent. So I have settled on "Shhw-eye-kart."

Who else has had this sort of identity issue? Come on Dave, we know you often would harken back to your Irish roots and change Dunne (Done )to O'Duinne (O'Dwin).

09/25/20 03:47 PM #8141    


Michael McLeod

I never told you the story, Mark. It happened in basic training. My drill sergeant kept calling me "Mc Cloud" instead of McLid and I was so scared of him and so thoroughly gung ho at the time - well, a hippie version of gung ho if you can imagine that - that I just started answering to it that way, and came to like it.

So that's the story, Mark. Or is it Marq? Seems to me you started spelling your name a weird way back then. But then I had, for a time, decided to write mine as "Myke." 

Remember the commercial where the guy is in a job interview and at the end he asks: "So do I get the job, mister dumbass?

To which his suddenly ice-cold interviewer responds: "It's Do-MOSS." 

09/25/20 05:38 PM #8142    


John Jackson

Mike Whatever-your-name-is, thanks for your excellent and nuanced view of the world of printed news which, with a few exceptions, is largely (and sadly) gone. 

09/25/20 05:46 PM #8143    


Michael McLeod

If you are looking for something to do there is something called a Global Peace Film Festival. Like everything else these days, it's virtual. I've written about it in the past and got to know the lady who runs it, Nina Streich. The films are all excellent and have something to do with peace, either personal or planetary. They aren't preachy - just great documentaries on subjects we all care about.  The cost to watch is minimal. Nina makes no money. This is a non-profit. The documentaries are inspirational and much needed. 

Here is a list of my faves, along with trailers, and the website of the festival.

At least look at the first trailer. Please. 

Can Art Stop a Bullet.

Sockeye Salmon Red Fish
Waging Change
To see these and a lot of other great films log on to


09/25/20 07:52 PM #8144    


James Hamilton, M. D.

Mike Mc​​​​​Whatever,

I look forward to that article you are going to write and post regarding differentiating news from opinion on the internet.

Just to be clear, will your article itself be classified as fact or fiction, news or opinion or maybe human interest 🤔📰😁?  



09/25/20 11:14 PM #8145    


Frank Ganley

Tim LaVelle, the night I called and you hung up , you missed an amazing concert from my band " The Old Man Jam Band! Our drummer Joe had just started playing "wipe out" and I recounted the story of our sword fight in biology class! That of course inspired me to call you. As I promised nothing political but you missed a spectacular rendition of tiki bar by John hiatt. Answer your phone 


09/25/20 11:58 PM #8146    


Michael McLeod

Jim: I'm hoping for the funny pages.

And continuing with my theme of separating fact from fiction and finding trustworthy sources here is a story from the New York Times about the balloting questions and supposed past mistakes that are being promulgated by the Trump camp.

Note that the story includes hyperlink to numerous studies. 


If you are among the tens of millions of Americans who intend to vote by mail this year, you’re facing a deluge of misinformation about the integrity of that voting method.

Much of it is coming from President Trump, who has repeatedly attacked state efforts to expand voting by mail. He uses language meant to discourage it, mischaracterizing mail-in ballots as “dangerous,” “unconstitutional,” “a scam” or rife with “fraud.”

His comments are not true. There have been numerous independent studies and government reviews finding voter fraud extremely rare in all forms, including mail-in voting. The president is making these claims to lay the groundwork for possibly not accepting the voting results, going so far as refusing to commit to a peaceful transfer of power if he loses.

Here’s a fact check to help debunk some of the common misperceptions and falsehoods.

Absentee ballots are more secure than mail-in ballots. False.

Mr. Trump, in explaining why he favored mail ballots in one state and not in another, has claimed that states like Florida — where he himself has voted by mail — are more secure because they use “absentee ballots” rather than mail-in ballots. (The state itself refers to them as “vote-by-mail ballots.”)


There have also been viral Twitter posts claiming that mail-in ballots cannot be “verified,” pose a greater threat to election integrity than “absentee ballots” or are not handled through a “chain of custody,” meaning they are not properly tracked.

Despite these claims, which sound consequential, there is no meaningful difference between “absentee ballots” and “vote-by-mail ballots.” The terms are often used interchangeably. Moreover, they are both secure forms of voting.

In terms of security, both mail-in and absentee ballots are paper ballots hand-marked by the voter, which the National Conference of State Legislatures considers the “gold standard of election security.” Forty-four states have signature verification protocols for mail ballots.

Because some states will automatically send mail-in ballots to registered voters, Mr. Trump sought to draw another misleading distinction. He claimed Democrats were “cheating” by mailing what he called “unsolicited ballots,” tweeting: “Sending out 80 MILLION BALLOTS to people who aren’t even asking for a ballot is unfair and a total fraud in the making.”

Ahead of the election, nine states and Washington, D.C., will indeed automatically mail ballots to voters — but only to those who are registered and not, as Mr. Trump has said, to “anybody in California that’s breathing,” “people that aren’t citizens” or “people that don’t even know what a ballot is.” Those automatic ballots will reach 44 million voters — not 80 million — including in the heavily Republican state of Utah, as well as Washington, which has a Republican secretary of state overseeing the election.

In August, some of Mr. Trump’s supporters and family members began circulating misleading claims that “846 dead people tried to vote in Michigan’s primary,” pointing to a news release by Michigan’s secretary of state to suggest that there had been a scheme by voters to cast ballots on behalf of the deceased. But the release itself did not say this, and had only pointed out that there were 846 “voters who died after casting their absentee ballot but before Election Day.”

Similarly, a Facebook post that has since amassed over 100,000 shares, likes and comments — and has been repeated by the president — falsely claimed “500,000 mail in ballots found in Virginia and 200,000 in Nevada with dead peoples names and pets.”

What had occurred was that a nonprofit in Virginia sent out 500,000 ballot applications with a wrong address on the return envelopes. In a story about the mistake, a local radio station quoted the leader of another civic organization as saying “one person stated that a dead person received one and a pet received one.” Similarly, a conservative legal group found that during primary elections in June, two counties in Nevada sent out more than 250,000 ballots that were undeliverable because of outdated or wrong addresses.

In buttressing his claim that mail ballots are not secure, Mr. Trump has repeatedly said that a friend in Westchester County, N.Y., received a ballot for his deceased son. This is improbable as New York is one of seven states that require voters to have a reason to request and vote by an absentee ballot; it is not mailing out ballots to voters unprompted.

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As for pets voting? A database of proven election fraud cases maintained by the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank, includes just one example of a woman requesting and then casting an absentee ballot for her dog. That database also notes that since 1991, there have been only 11 cases where someone filled out an absentee ballot on behalf of a dead person.

Continue reading the main story

Mail-in ballots will lead to a ‘rigged’ election. False.

Numerous studies have found little evidence that mail-in ballots help one party over another. Of the 16 states where more than half of voters voted by mail in the last presidential election, Mr. Trump won nine. Several Republican states like Iowa, Missouri and Alabama have expanded mail-in ballots this year.

And yet, Mr. Trump continues to claim, without evidence, that “Democrats are also trying to rig the election by sending out tens of millions of mail-in ballots” or that “they’re not sending them to Republican neighborhoods.”

Nevada and its election system, in particular, has become a target, particularly after Gov. Steve Sisolak blocked plans for the Trump campaign to hold an outdoor rally in the state. Mr. Trump has falsely claimed 14 times that Nevada officials “don’t even want verification of the signature” (they do) and seven times that Mr. Sisolak was “in charge of ballots” and therefore “can rig the election” (the Republican secretary of state supervises elections, and local officials handle the ballots).

The president’s unfounded suspicions that mail-in voting harms Republicans have been further amplified online with viral posts claiming that a “Trump Landslide Will Be Flipped By Mail-In Votes Emerging A Week After Election Day.” These claims were based on misconstruing the findings of a Democratic data and analytics firm. The firm’s chief executive had simply warned that in-person voting by Republicans would create a “mirage” of Mr. Trump leading on election night, but that results could change once “every legitimate vote is tallied.”

But there was this one time.…

With election officials running thousands of local, state and national elections, mistakes are bound to happen. These isolated incidents, however, are not evidence of widespread wrongdoing. But they can be taken out of context.

Last week, for example, Mr. Trump and others highlighted ballot printing and mailing errors that affected fewer than 1,000 ballots.

In Michigan, more than 400 ballots listed the wrong person as Mr. Trump’s running mate. The issue was fixed and alerted within two hours, and officials said the state would still accept any affected ballots that were returned. There is no evidence that the misprint was widespread or that the Democratic secretary of state had “purposely” printed the wrong name, as Mr. Trump claimed.

In another instance of error, Mecklenburg County, N.C., accidentally sent roughly 500 voters two ballots. Election officials said the mistake was unlikely to lead to double voting, as the ballots contained specific codes for each individual voter.

Even in the rare example where there was malfeasance, as there was during a May special election for seats on the City Council in Paterson, N.J., where four men were charged with fraud, Mr. Trump has exaggerated the situation nonetheless.

“In New Jersey, 20 percent of the ballots were defective, fraudulent, 20 percent,” he said at a rally in Pennsylvania in August. “And that’s because they did a good job. OK? So this is just a way they’re trying to steal the election and everybody knows that.”

The local board of elections in fact rejected 3,200 ballots or 19 percent — but not 23 percent30 percent or 40 percent, as Mr. Trump has gone on to claim. And those in both parties told The Washington Post that not all were fraudulent. Ballots can be disqualified for mismatched signatures or for other user errors.

Curious about the accuracy of a claim? Email

09/26/20 04:58 PM #8147    


Michael McLeod

Jim: You probably saw this already. But it's really interesting, and contradicts earlier theories about why kids and covid don't mix.

09/26/20 06:45 PM #8148    


James Hamilton, M. D.

Mike McL.,

I had not seen that particular article but reports about it and other similar reports.

This virus is really making the medical world more knowledgable as well as more confused about the immune system. The more we learn, the more we need to learn.

It used to be medical knowledge and understanding changed maybe every few years. With COVID-19 that happens almost weekly. And people wonder why the medical information released to the public seems confusing! Hey, it confuses us doctors also!

Back in med school we used to joke that the same questions were on our exams that were there for the class one year ahead of us. The only thing that changed were the correct answers!

It seems that the microbes are always one step ahead of researchers and are winning. But I still have faith that we will conquer this pathogen. The question is "What's next"?.



09/27/20 11:54 AM #8149    


Michael McLeod

Jim: Well what you say is consistent with the very small window that opened up for me when I wrote that story several weeks ago and all the doctors kept on saying that this was indeed an utterly new and mystifying critter on the block.

On another front: I woke up this morning with the song, "Catch a Falling Star and Put it in Your Pocket" in my head.

I have not thought of or sung - well I never sang the damn thing - anyway there is no reason I can think of why that song would have been in my head at the moment my girlfriend called me and woke me up around ten oclock and hell yes I sleep late I'm frigging retired or at least semi retired.

What a crappy song. But more to the point how fascinating it is that our neurons, though resting, never stop firing away, they just do it in an utterly random way, calling upon the lord knows how many little info bits that we have in that awesome organ, which apparently continues chugging away like an idling engine at a stop sign while we sleep. 

Anybody else have a story about waking up with something weird and unaccountable on their mind?

09/27/20 01:24 PM #8150    


James Hamilton, M. D.


Waking up with a song... a sure sign that you have been infected with an ear worm.surprise It has probably already burrowed deep into your brain and there is no known cure!crying


09/27/20 03:49 PM #8151    


Michael McLeod

I feel bad for the worm slim pickin's.

09/27/20 03:53 PM #8152    


John Jackson

Mike, I didn’t wake up with this but a couple of days ago, for the first time in many years,  I happened to think of the lunchtime offerings in the BWHS cafeteria which, I believe, were the same each week throughout our four years.  We started off the week (healthily) on Monday with hot dogs and then the offering for each succeeding day incorporated the leftovers from the previous day (except for Friday which, I think, was grilled cheese).  Can anyone name the lunchtime delicacies we were offered  for Tuesday-Thursday?

09/27/20 05:39 PM #8153    


Michael McLeod

Well obviously you can rule out hotdogs for Friday and I'm working with my ptsd therapist to remember whatever it was we had on Thursdays.  

09/27/20 05:53 PM #8154    

Mary Clare Hummer (Bauer)

I was a packer so I can't help you except I think they had something akin to a Wendy's frosty. Sometimes I would partake. Usually though, if I had a quarter to spend, I'd save it to splurge at Sandie's on the way home from school. Weren't the burgers 15¢?  Now THAT was some fine eating!!!  
🖐🤚      😷


09/27/20 09:54 PM #8155    


John Jackson

Now we know why Trump, alone among Republican or Democratic presidential  candidates over the past 40 years, has not released his federal tax returns.  The New York Times has obtained his tax returns for the past 20+ years and these are the takeaways for this titan of American business (italics are direct quotes from NYT article):

The Times has obtained Donald Trump’s tax information extending over more than two decades, revealing struggling properties, vast write-offs, an audit battle and hundreds of millions in debt.

Mr. Trump paid no federal income taxes in 11 of 18 years that The Times examined. In 2017, after he became president, his tax bill was only $750.

He has reduced his tax bill with questionable measures, including a $72.9 million tax refund that is the subject of an audit by the Internal Revenue Service.

Many of his signature businesses, including his golf courses, report losing large amounts of money — losses that have helped him to lower his taxes.

The financial pressure on him is increasing as hundreds of millions of dollars in loans he personally guaranteed are soon coming due.

Even while declaring losses, he has managed to enjoy a lavish lifestyle by taking tax deductions on what most people would consider personal expenses, including residences, aircraft and $70,000 in hairstyling for television.

Of course his defenders will initially say it's fake news, but before long they'll be forced to do damage control  by saying  only suckers pay taxes (kind of like the suckers and losers who came ashore in the first wave at Normandy in 1944).


09/27/20 11:08 PM #8156    


Joseph D. McCarthy

Since I know the question will come up.

Just a quick note before you start reading, or hearing, that the President's tax return's were leaked by an employ of the I.R.S..  Attempting to access tax returns without authorization from on TOP of any person in the public eye will immediately result in arrest.  Followed by a trial, then loss of any pension before jail time AND a hefty fine.

Second, try not to believe any conspirancy type theory that the U.S. Government has a twenty Trillion slush fund to cover all of the warehouses buried in Utah to store everyone's tax returns for the past 100 plus years.  The only tax returns that are maintained for ever are the tax returns for the period that a person is Actually in office as the president.  Those are maintained in Washington, DC, not Mossyport. 

After  you file your, paper, tax return it is input by clerks into what is considered "Transcript" form.  An electronically filed returnn automatically ends in "Transcript" form.  The original returns are maintained in Service Centers for a period of THREE years then normally destroyed, and all that remains is the "Transcript" in electronic form.  

So, an I.R.S. employee who tried to obtain over ten years worth of returns would not only be unable, but the attempt to input requests would send off ALARMS.  

This leads to the question of who would have actual hard copies of all those returns.  First, would be employees of the accounting firm that does the bookkeeping and prepares the actual returns.  Second, would be the banks that do business with a person by way of loans.  Last might be others who provided loans or other financial dealings with a taxpayer.  This is similar to each of you at some time in your life giving a financial institution, bank or other, authorization to your tax returns when you borrowed to purchase a home.

I hope this has totally confused you, err I mean provided some understaning.

And yes, I have been audited a number of times, and hate to say it but received SMALL refunds.


09/28/20 03:19 AM #8157    


David Mitchell

Joe and John,

This is indeed very confusing. If you are correct Joe, (and you should know) then where does all this information that the NY Times reports come from?


Meanwhile, in a realted story, there is a short video documentary about a team of financial investigators on the NY Times staff that has obtained and sorted thousands of pages of Trump's family "trust" finances (which I believe are available on pubic record), detailing some of the many years of illegally "funneling" money from the father to his five(?) children (Donald and two sisters and two brothers if I am correct). One of the "accounting methods" is so simple and bold that it defies imaginattion.

If I can sort of summarize (and I am open to correction on this); It was a simple process of one of the family trusts buying tens (maybe hundreds) of millions of dollars worth of replacement equipment for all their many real estate holdings (elevators, heating and air conditioning units, all sorts of expensive equipment) and selling it at enormous markups to another of the the familiy's real estate trusts. The children pocket the profit on the sale and the equipment goes on the books at highy inflated values for much greater deprecition write-offs.

There was a lot more to this report. That was the part that caught my attention. Perhaps this is all part of the same investigation from the NY Times.

NOTE: If I can find this viedeo I will post it. It's been a while since I first saw it. This team at NY Times has thousands of pages of documents and have been piecing it together for several years - since before the election if I recall correctly.


And don't even get me started on what I found as I drilled deeply into the "Trump Univesrsity" lawsuit case (a while back). That story seems to have gone away since he settled just before the election. I seemed to me that he had to settle that one, or the bad publicity would have cost him the election. It was simply blatant naked fraud, done on such a shallow and transparent manner I could hardly believe anyone could be that dumb - or that bold - or both.

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